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Fentanyl Vaccine Breakthrough – Potential “Game Changer” for Opioid Epidemic

22 points by bubblehack3r 4y ago

postalrat 4y ago
This sounds like a vodka vaccine for some addicted to vodka. Odds are they will just switch to whiskey or something else.
- autotune 4y ago
  The bigger issue is someone who enjoys vodka, but ends up with a lethal dose of something like fentanyl added without their permission to make it stronger to the point where they OD after a single shot. Obviously this doesn't happen in drinks, but rather, with cocaine and its ilk.
tylergetsay 4y ago
This doesnt mention that fentanyl is used widely in anesthesia and emergency medicine (weirdly enough, its the safest opiate in this setting). Not sure doctors want to just give this away.
- belval 4y ago
  It does touch on that point: > The anti-fentanyl antibodies were specific to fentanyl and a fentanyl derivative and did not cross-react with other opioids, such as morphine. That means a vaccinated person would still be able to be treated for pain relief with other opioids The idea is to remove the fentanyl's effect while keeping the effect of other opioids that are harder to get. The issue with fentanyl isn't the drug use itself, it's the fact that it's too potent for the level of carelessness of your typical dealer/junkie. They can still get high on heroin with a lesser risk of dying.
  - somehnguy 4y ago
    Actual fentanyl is used widely in medical settings though. I had a surgery last week and received it quite a few times during anesthesia and after. I received Morphine a number of times during the recovery as well, but presumably there is a reason they chose to use the former during surgery & early recovery.
    - tylergetsay 4y ago
      My understanding is that fentanyl is safer because the amount needed to overdose is 10x what's given in a medical setting while other opiates are 2x. These numbers are made up but something like that
credit_guy 4y ago
> which is 50 times stronger than heroin and 100 times stronger than morphine. Consumption of about 2 milligrams of fentanyl (the size of two grains of rice) is likely to be fatal depending on a person’s size. I don't understand why they keep bringing this up when they talk about fentanyl. Vitamin D doses are measured in micrograms. The daily recommended dose is 10 micrograms. Can you accidentally ingest 2 milligrams of Vitamin D? Unlikely; the pills with the maximum dose are listed at 5000 IU, which translates to 0.125 mg. You'd need to swallow 16 such pills, and that requires quite a deliberate act.
- belval 4y ago
  > I don't understand why they keep bringing this up when they talk about fentanyl. Because when the lethal dose is 2 mg, it's very easy for a careless dealer to make a bad mix and kill their customers. Fentanyl is cheap so you can cut everything with it to make it "stronger", but then you have some end user that usually consumes weaker stuff getting a deadly dose of fentanyl by accident.
  - credit_guy 4y ago
    Well, I'm obviously not an expert, but can't the (illegal lab) producers just deliver fentanyl in low concentrations? Just like Vitamin D? I imagine the dealers don't want their customers to die. Why do they need to have pure Fentanyl anywhere? Why don't labs just mix Fentanyl with starch, let's say, in a 1:1000 ratio? My guess is that actually that's exactly what they do, it would be really a rookie mistake to not do that. And all those fentanyl deaths are not because fentanyl is 50 times more potent than heroin, they are just old fashioned overdoses - people who used to shoot often, took a break, lost their tolerance, and then used again at the dose they couldn't tolerate anymore.
    - marcus0x62 4y ago
      Everyone involved in the supply chain has a motivation to dilute their product to make more money. There aren’t any standards on who dilutes the product, or by how much, nor is there any guarantee the dilution is done in a reliable way. Thus, end users get a product and don’t have any real idea what it contains or how pure it is.
jimmydean12 4y ago
So a person takes enough to die while chasing the high … (that they can no longer get) Vaccines to save us from ourselves ? I’m not sure about this one. Why tackle the effect when we need to address the root causation ? Why is a person abusing opiates to begin with and how can we help them without enabling them further?
goldenchrome 4y ago
1. Patient’s life is so chaotic and devoid of meaning that they seek out powerful drugs to live in an alternate reality despite the fact that it’s slowly killing them. 2. Society says “Oh no, you are suffering, let us help you”. 3. Instead of fixing society’s ills that caused this person’s suffering (too hard right now), society says “Hey you know that medicine you take all the time? We’ll inject you with this and then it won’t work any more. Now you can enjoy reality!” 4. The doctors leave and the patient is once again alone. Patient kills themselves. 5. No more suffering! Society solved the problem!
- bergenty 4y ago
  Nonsense. 1. Some people want to do cocaine or ecstasy a couple of times a year. 2. They don’t die from a fentanyl overdose. 3. Success!
  - goldenchrome 4y ago
    I accept that use case but I don’t think “safer recreational drug use” is the heroic victory that the researchers or the scientific press were hoping for.
    - lilboiluvr69 4y ago
      Preventing people from accidentally dying from overdose seems like a pretty worthy goal.
    - bergenty 4y ago
      I feel like the recreation cocaine/Molly user base is much higher and preventable deaths there are much easier to well… prevent.
- thebigspacefuck 4y ago
  What’s interesting though is that it doesn’t prevent morphine from working, so they could still abuse opiates, it’s just more expensive.
- 4y ago
slt2021 4y ago
there is no need for fentanyl vaccine. Junkies who chase high will just switch to something else and OD themselves. The psychological dependency on drugs should be treated, but this is much harder problem tightly coupled with larger societal problems. I would love to read research on differences in drug problems in countries with less societal stress and more happiness vs more stress and less happiness. In the end fentanyl is simply a painkiller, people choose to get high to run away from their life problems. In the mind of patient, the risk of getting OD and becoming drug addict is a better decision, rather than facing grim reality of their daily life and future prospects.
- lilboiluvr69 4y ago
  While I agree with the sentiment behind your post, especially regarding reexamining our society, I think you're coming off as a little overly cynical. This vaccine seems to be a promising tool to preventing people in treatment (or people who come across fentanyl by accident) from overdosing. In principle at least, that seems like a positive thing for me. It's not a silver bullet, but what is? Addiction is a hard problem...
- mariuolo 4y ago
  > The psychological dependency on drugs should be treated Current addiction treatments tend to approach the problem from multiple directions, but in the end it has to be a decision from the affected person. If this vaccine actually works it can give them a leg up while they explore the underlying psychological problems that led them to substance addiction in the first place.
tanseydavid 4y ago
To me at least this sure seems to be a bizarre use of the word: Vaccine.
- detaro 4y ago
  Given that it works through anti-bodies it doesn't seem that odd?

22 points by bubblehack3r 4y ago

This sounds like a vodka vaccine for some addicted to vodka. Odds are they will just switch to whiskey or something else.

autotune 4y ago
The bigger issue is someone who enjoys vodka, but ends up with a lethal dose of something like fentanyl added without their permission to make it stronger to the point where they OD after a single shot. Obviously this doesn't happen in drinks, but rather, with cocaine and its ilk.

tylergetsay 4y ago

This doesnt mention that fentanyl is used widely in anesthesia and emergency medicine (weirdly enough, its the safest opiate in this setting). Not sure doctors want to just give this away.

belval 4y ago
It does touch on that point: > The anti-fentanyl antibodies were specific to fentanyl and a fentanyl derivative and did not cross-react with other opioids, such as morphine. That means a vaccinated person would still be able to be treated for pain relief with other opioids The idea is to remove the fentanyl's effect while keeping the effect of other opioids that are harder to get. The issue with fentanyl isn't the drug use itself, it's the fact that it's too potent for the level of carelessness of your typical dealer/junkie. They can still get high on heroin with a lesser risk of dying.
- somehnguy 4y ago
  Actual fentanyl is used widely in medical settings though. I had a surgery last week and received it quite a few times during anesthesia and after. I received Morphine a number of times during the recovery as well, but presumably there is a reason they chose to use the former during surgery & early recovery.
  - tylergetsay 4y ago
    My understanding is that fentanyl is safer because the amount needed to overdose is 10x what's given in a medical setting while other opiates are 2x. These numbers are made up but something like that

credit_guy 4y ago

> which is 50 times stronger than heroin and 100 times stronger than morphine. Consumption of about 2 milligrams of fentanyl (the size of two grains of rice) is likely to be fatal depending on a person’s size. I don't understand why they keep bringing this up when they talk about fentanyl. Vitamin D doses are measured in micrograms. The daily recommended dose is 10 micrograms. Can you accidentally ingest 2 milligrams of Vitamin D? Unlikely; the pills with the maximum dose are listed at 5000 IU, which translates to 0.125 mg. You'd need to swallow 16 such pills, and that requires quite a deliberate act.

belval 4y ago
> I don't understand why they keep bringing this up when they talk about fentanyl. Because when the lethal dose is 2 mg, it's very easy for a careless dealer to make a bad mix and kill their customers. Fentanyl is cheap so you can cut everything with it to make it "stronger", but then you have some end user that usually consumes weaker stuff getting a deadly dose of fentanyl by accident.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  Well, I'm obviously not an expert, but can't the (illegal lab) producers just deliver fentanyl in low concentrations? Just like Vitamin D? I imagine the dealers don't want their customers to die. Why do they need to have pure Fentanyl anywhere? Why don't labs just mix Fentanyl with starch, let's say, in a 1:1000 ratio? My guess is that actually that's exactly what they do, it would be really a rookie mistake to not do that. And all those fentanyl deaths are not because fentanyl is 50 times more potent than heroin, they are just old fashioned overdoses - people who used to shoot often, took a break, lost their tolerance, and then used again at the dose they couldn't tolerate anymore.
  - marcus0x62 4y ago
    Everyone involved in the supply chain has a motivation to dilute their product to make more money. There aren’t any standards on who dilutes the product, or by how much, nor is there any guarantee the dilution is done in a reliable way. Thus, end users get a product and don’t have any real idea what it contains or how pure it is.

jimmydean12 4y ago

So a person takes enough to die while chasing the high … (that they can no longer get) Vaccines to save us from ourselves ? I’m not sure about this one. Why tackle the effect when we need to address the root causation ? Why is a person abusing opiates to begin with and how can we help them without enabling them further?

goldenchrome 4y ago

1. Patient’s life is so chaotic and devoid of meaning that they seek out powerful drugs to live in an alternate reality despite the fact that it’s slowly killing them. 2. Society says “Oh no, you are suffering, let us help you”. 3. Instead of fixing society’s ills that caused this person’s suffering (too hard right now), society says “Hey you know that medicine you take all the time? We’ll inject you with this and then it won’t work any more. Now you can enjoy reality!” 4. The doctors leave and the patient is once again alone. Patient kills themselves. 5. No more suffering! Society solved the problem!

bergenty 4y ago
Nonsense. 1. Some people want to do cocaine or ecstasy a couple of times a year. 2. They don’t die from a fentanyl overdose. 3. Success!
- goldenchrome 4y ago
  I accept that use case but I don’t think “safer recreational drug use” is the heroic victory that the researchers or the scientific press were hoping for.
  - lilboiluvr69 4y ago
    Preventing people from accidentally dying from overdose seems like a pretty worthy goal.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    I feel like the recreation cocaine/Molly user base is much higher and preventable deaths there are much easier to well… prevent.
thebigspacefuck 4y ago
What’s interesting though is that it doesn’t prevent morphine from working, so they could still abuse opiates, it’s just more expensive.
4y ago

slt2021 4y ago

there is no need for fentanyl vaccine. Junkies who chase high will just switch to something else and OD themselves. The psychological dependency on drugs should be treated, but this is much harder problem tightly coupled with larger societal problems. I would love to read research on differences in drug problems in countries with less societal stress and more happiness vs more stress and less happiness. In the end fentanyl is simply a painkiller, people choose to get high to run away from their life problems. In the mind of patient, the risk of getting OD and becoming drug addict is a better decision, rather than facing grim reality of their daily life and future prospects.

lilboiluvr69 4y ago
While I agree with the sentiment behind your post, especially regarding reexamining our society, I think you're coming off as a little overly cynical. This vaccine seems to be a promising tool to preventing people in treatment (or people who come across fentanyl by accident) from overdosing. In principle at least, that seems like a positive thing for me. It's not a silver bullet, but what is? Addiction is a hard problem...
mariuolo 4y ago
> The psychological dependency on drugs should be treated Current addiction treatments tend to approach the problem from multiple directions, but in the end it has to be a decision from the affected person. If this vaccine actually works it can give them a leg up while they explore the underlying psychological problems that led them to substance addiction in the first place.

tanseydavid 4y ago

To me at least this sure seems to be a bizarre use of the word: Vaccine.

detaro 4y ago
Given that it works through anti-bodies it doesn't seem that odd?