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He comments at the end, particularly to Tesla cars and their affordibility, I wish wouod get more mainstream attention. I would love a Tesla without all the bul

He comments at the end, particularly to Tesla cars and their affordibility, I wish wouod get more mainstream attention. I would love a Tesla without all the bullshit gimmicks that exist in cars today. I literally use nothing but the ac/heater and AM/FM radio. Give me manual windows for all I care. Cars just aren't affordable to the middle or lower classes.

pmoriarty 4y ago
The things that are important about modern cars to me are the safety features. It's amazing that cars these days will warn you or even steer you back when you're drifting out of a lane, for example, or alert you when you're backing up and they sense a car or pedestrian coming your way, or cameras that are so much easier to see through than fogged-up or snow-covered windows. I wouldn't want to give those up. Touch-screen displays and bluetooth, however, I could live without... not to mention all the tracking and spying today's electronics do on you. A big "no thanks" to that!
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Touch screen displays and Bluetooth cost a few hundred dollars for budget options, and a thousand for nice ones. Surely the utility of CarPlay/Android Auto is worth that for most people, even if just from navigation apps. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-6-2-apple-carplay-built-in-bluetooth-in-dash-digital-media-receiver-black/6283607.p?skuId=6283607 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-6-2-apple-carplay-built-in...
  - pmoriarty 4y ago
    You can use navigation apps directly on your phone or tablet.
  - Retric 4y ago
    A few hundred dollars is quite significant at the low end of the market. Backup cameras as mandatory, so all cars need an screen and once you have a screen it’s cheaper to remove buttons.
  - tartoran 4y ago
    Touch screens are actually lowering the cost for manufacturers and lowering the usability for users. Gimmie buttons!!
  - zappzoom 4y ago
    You don't need a touchscreen for CarPlay/Android Auto. For example, Mazda has removed touchscreens from their newer vehicles. The display is recessed into the dashboard directly below the windshield, and you use a rotary encoder to navigate. Text entry can be done from your phone's keyboard. It is a lovely design that helps keep your eyes on the road without sacrificing solid smartphone integration.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      You can talk to Android Auto too, I assume Car Play is similar.
doubled112 4y ago
I'm with you here. * Engine * Transmission, manual is fine and was cheaper to produce * Brakes * Heat and AC * Wheels that stay attached, looking at you Toyota * Decent body that doesn't dissolve in the first winter like a Mazda that one generation Everything else is optional or nice to have. Supposedly it is progress, but there are, to me, so many anti-features in a modern car. Moonroof? Leaked. Fancy stereo? You ever have one lock up and repeat a half second like you're playing an MP3 on a Mac LC II? I did in 2014. Sorry, have to pull over and reboot the car. Big rims? Expensive.
- egberts1 4y ago
  I'd sooner buy a Yugo than a Mercedes Benz.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  The Japanese Kei car seems like the ideal to me. Of course, safety amongst the land barges that Americans tend to prefer is a big issue sadly.
DennisP 4y ago
There's a simple answer to "What the hell does self-driving have to do with saving the environment?" It's just this: if we had a ride service with level 5 self-driving, it'd be way cheaper to use that than personally own a car. You'd accelerate the transition to an all-electric fleet. You might even need fewer total cars, which would help even more.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I like the idea of not having to drive a car regularly, and I say that as someone who enjoys randomly driving around the Texas Hill Country occasionally as a pastime. That said, it's not all that clear to me that eliminating a major friction associated with one of the most intense uses of energy - individual transportation end-to-end in a car, will help to save energy. If it was all derived from a clean, renewable source, that would be one thing, but that is not our current situation.
- _cenw 4y ago
  I'm not sure why this is better than investing in public transit, a tried and tested method that achieves much better density. Aside from Elon's apparent disgust for sharing vehicles with other people.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    Public transit requires dedicated routes, which sucks if it doesn't go where you want. Self-driving taxis can pick up multiple people going to the same place and take them there no matter where they want to go.
    - _cenw 4y ago
      I agree that to some degree that public transport can't solve all issues, but it can get you far enough that congestion becomes much less severe. It should be the primary means, not the only. Of course the US has a lot more problems with implementing public transport that aren't easy to solve and are rooted in zoning/city planning. Single family home suburbs don't have the density to justify public transit.
rglullis 4y ago
I don't get that logic. If people wanted cheap, low-powered cars, they would just use golf carts. If Tesla focused on that market, it would be nothing but just a prototype in someone else's garage. It's plenty obvious that the only way that EV would have a chance is if they went upmarket and sold to the people willing to pay a premium. People who care about "affordability" are almost by definition the last in the adoption curve. Now, one could argue that "regulation could help force the manufacturers to push for EV", to which I'd respond "If regulation can do this much, why not just push for regulation that gets the US rid of car-dependency altogether?"
- _cenw 4y ago
  That market exists and other EV companies are starting to serve it, especially outside the US.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    That market only exists now, way later in the adoption curve of a new technology. I am far from a Tesla or Musk fan, but even I can recognize that without Tesla showing up in the market, the best we had was Toyota's hybrid system - which is also still more expensive than regular ICEs and never meant to become a mass-market product.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      There's some really good interviews with the actual founders of Tesla, talking about how when looking for a market they found lots of silicon valley types with Porsches and Prius's and realised they could sell them one car that met both needs.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      If we read “that market” as the category inbetween walking and a full car, it exploded way before. I’m thinking rental bikes fleets (which later got electric assist) provided and maintained by cities for instance, with heavy investments in the infra that started in the 2000s, not far from when Tesla Inc. saw the light.
boh 4y ago
There's cheaper electric cars in the market. Tesla is a luxury brand. It would be like asking why can't Mercedes make a cheaper car. They can, but that's not the product they're making.
tokamak-teapot 4y ago
The AM and FM radio here are full of stations I don't want to listen to - same with most of what's on DAB. Just an AUX socket please.
phlipski 4y ago
Both the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Bolt are under $30k brand new.
Markoff 4y ago
> Cars just aren't affordable to the middle or lower classes. And it will be worse with politicians ignoring their voters: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33667732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33667732 This is from Stellantis CEO, CEO of (one of?) the biggest car companies in world.
insane_dreamer 4y ago
As a single that works. With kids you want all the modern safety features as well as the convenience features (I like a manual shifter but when driving with kids in the car I don’t want to have to deal with shifting while also mediating some squabble in the backseat)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

pmoriarty 4y ago

The things that are important about modern cars to me are the safety features. It's amazing that cars these days will warn you or even steer you back when you're drifting out of a lane, for example, or alert you when you're backing up and they sense a car or pedestrian coming your way, or cameras that are so much easier to see through than fogged-up or snow-covered windows. I wouldn't want to give those up. Touch-screen displays and bluetooth, however, I could live without... not to mention all the tracking and spying today's electronics do on you. A big "no thanks" to that!

lotsofpulp 4y ago
Touch screen displays and Bluetooth cost a few hundred dollars for budget options, and a thousand for nice ones. Surely the utility of CarPlay/Android Auto is worth that for most people, even if just from navigation apps. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-6-2-apple-carplay-built-in-bluetooth-in-dash-digital-media-receiver-black/6283607.p?skuId=6283607 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-6-2-apple-carplay-built-in...
- pmoriarty 4y ago
  You can use navigation apps directly on your phone or tablet.
- Retric 4y ago
  A few hundred dollars is quite significant at the low end of the market. Backup cameras as mandatory, so all cars need an screen and once you have a screen it’s cheaper to remove buttons.
- tartoran 4y ago
  Touch screens are actually lowering the cost for manufacturers and lowering the usability for users. Gimmie buttons!!
- zappzoom 4y ago
  You don't need a touchscreen for CarPlay/Android Auto. For example, Mazda has removed touchscreens from their newer vehicles. The display is recessed into the dashboard directly below the windshield, and you use a rotary encoder to navigate. Text entry can be done from your phone's keyboard. It is a lovely design that helps keep your eyes on the road without sacrificing solid smartphone integration.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    You can talk to Android Auto too, I assume Car Play is similar.

doubled112 4y ago

I'm with you here. * Engine * Transmission, manual is fine and was cheaper to produce * Brakes * Heat and AC * Wheels that stay attached, looking at you Toyota * Decent body that doesn't dissolve in the first winter like a Mazda that one generation Everything else is optional or nice to have. Supposedly it is progress, but there are, to me, so many anti-features in a modern car. Moonroof? Leaked. Fancy stereo? You ever have one lock up and repeat a half second like you're playing an MP3 on a Mac LC II? I did in 2014. Sorry, have to pull over and reboot the car. Big rims? Expensive.

egberts1 4y ago
I'd sooner buy a Yugo than a Mercedes Benz.
hotpotamus 4y ago
The Japanese Kei car seems like the ideal to me. Of course, safety amongst the land barges that Americans tend to prefer is a big issue sadly.

DennisP 4y ago

There's a simple answer to "What the hell does self-driving have to do with saving the environment?" It's just this: if we had a ride service with level 5 self-driving, it'd be way cheaper to use that than personally own a car. You'd accelerate the transition to an all-electric fleet. You might even need fewer total cars, which would help even more.

hotpotamus 4y ago
I like the idea of not having to drive a car regularly, and I say that as someone who enjoys randomly driving around the Texas Hill Country occasionally as a pastime. That said, it's not all that clear to me that eliminating a major friction associated with one of the most intense uses of energy - individual transportation end-to-end in a car, will help to save energy. If it was all derived from a clean, renewable source, that would be one thing, but that is not our current situation.
_cenw 4y ago
I'm not sure why this is better than investing in public transit, a tried and tested method that achieves much better density. Aside from Elon's apparent disgust for sharing vehicles with other people.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  Public transit requires dedicated routes, which sucks if it doesn't go where you want. Self-driving taxis can pick up multiple people going to the same place and take them there no matter where they want to go.
  - _cenw 4y ago
    I agree that to some degree that public transport can't solve all issues, but it can get you far enough that congestion becomes much less severe. It should be the primary means, not the only. Of course the US has a lot more problems with implementing public transport that aren't easy to solve and are rooted in zoning/city planning. Single family home suburbs don't have the density to justify public transit.

rglullis 4y ago

I don't get that logic. If people wanted cheap, low-powered cars, they would just use golf carts. If Tesla focused on that market, it would be nothing but just a prototype in someone else's garage. It's plenty obvious that the only way that EV would have a chance is if they went upmarket and sold to the people willing to pay a premium. People who care about "affordability" are almost by definition the last in the adoption curve. Now, one could argue that "regulation could help force the manufacturers to push for EV", to which I'd respond "If regulation can do this much, why not just push for regulation that gets the US rid of car-dependency altogether?"

_cenw 4y ago
That market exists and other EV companies are starting to serve it, especially outside the US.
- rglullis 4y ago
  That market only exists now, way later in the adoption curve of a new technology. I am far from a Tesla or Musk fan, but even I can recognize that without Tesla showing up in the market, the best we had was Toyota's hybrid system - which is also still more expensive than regular ICEs and never meant to become a mass-market product.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    There's some really good interviews with the actual founders of Tesla, talking about how when looking for a market they found lots of silicon valley types with Porsches and Prius's and realised they could sell them one car that met both needs.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    If we read “that market” as the category inbetween walking and a full car, it exploded way before. I’m thinking rental bikes fleets (which later got electric assist) provided and maintained by cities for instance, with heavy investments in the infra that started in the 2000s, not far from when Tesla Inc. saw the light.

boh 4y ago

There's cheaper electric cars in the market. Tesla is a luxury brand. It would be like asking why can't Mercedes make a cheaper car. They can, but that's not the product they're making.

tokamak-teapot 4y ago

The AM and FM radio here are full of stations I don't want to listen to - same with most of what's on DAB. Just an AUX socket please.

phlipski 4y ago

Both the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Bolt are under $30k brand new.

Markoff 4y ago

> Cars just aren't affordable to the middle or lower classes. And it will be worse with politicians ignoring their voters: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33667732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33667732 This is from Stellantis CEO, CEO of (one of?) the biggest car companies in world.

insane_dreamer 4y ago

As a single that works. With kids you want all the modern safety features as well as the convenience features (I like a manual shifter but when driving with kids in the car I don’t want to have to deal with shifting while also mediating some squabble in the backseat)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]