8 ms·

What is the history of ‘Vox populi, vox Dei’? (2013)

39 points by saikatsg 4y ago

theCrowing 4y ago
If even one fanboy learns latin because of Musk trying to seem literate and edgy I'll take it as a win.
- johnchristopher 4y ago
  That's a very strange win to take considering the damage Trump did with his Twitter account and could do again if he gets back to it.
  - qsort 4y ago
    Ridentem dicere verum, quid vetat?
  - theCrowing 4y ago
    To stay on brand and topic: Armor fati.
    - a1445c8b 4y ago
      Lorem ipsum. Am I doing this right?
    - raverbashing 4y ago
      *Amor Fati (Unless I'm missing a joke)
      - sn41 4y ago
        [sic]
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    Caveat Emptor.
- gitfan86 4y ago
  It has been very interesting watching people laughing at me for investing in "An Internet guy" trying to build cars in 2014. To now calling me a "Elon Fanboy" and saying that "the car guy doesn't understand internet companies". Yes, I'm a fan of the guy that helped me make millions of dollars, and who is forcing other car companies to electric. What do you expect my response to be? "I hate that all these gas cars are going away and I wish I had lost all my money"
  - d23 4y ago
    > What do you expect my response to be? "I hate that all these gas cars are going away and I wish I had lost all my money" Let me whip up some copy for you: “I was a fan of his, but his childish behavior as of late has been disappointing.”
    - gitfan86 4y ago
      "as of late" During the Paypal days he slept in the office, expected everyone to work long hours, and got into arguments and was an asshole at times. This has been well known for over a decade. Why didn't the media run articles talking about how hard he was to work for during the past 10 years? Why just now? And, why is the NYT writing puff pieces about SBF? Do you ever think that maybe you are parroting what the media wants you to think?
      - Jotra7 4y ago
      - dagmx 4y ago
        I’ve read about his work ethics for ages, which means the media did report on it. Do you maybe think you’re parroting what groups of sycophants say to each other to rationalize their idols?
        gitfan86 4y ago
        Given that my opinion hasn't changed much for 8 years, I suspect, I wasn't parroting the 'fanboy' rhetoric from 2022 back in 2015.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mikro2nd 4y ago
Vox bot, vox dei.
beardyw 4y ago
[flagged]
- hoc 4y ago
  They already comment on the typical results of the popular vote with that story of Pontius Pilate and the resulting crucificaion of their savior, though. Just to make the point that it needs a god/leader/church instead of the people to make the right choices, but anyway... At least we can pinpoint Twitter at having finally arrived at the level of a roman emperor's decadent way of giving to the people games with a wave of his hand after killing the senate and letting his personal troops run the place instead. There might be hints towards similarities and broader application of that same concept connected to the other main character of the same twitter story...
  - carrja99 4y ago
    Holy crap do they really!?
- oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
  This has already happened in the UK. Jacob Rees-Mogg — a Conservative MP who was heavily in favour of Brexit, likes to cosplay as a Victorian gentleman, and is a practicing Catholic — likes to use it to pretend he's clever.
- dang 4y ago
  No religious flamewar, please. It's particularly nasty but also easily avoidable - like scurvy, or something. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
petecooper 4y ago
Context, for those that don't know (including me): https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1594131768298315777 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1594131768298315777
- incomingpain 4y ago
  I doubt trump ever returns to twitter anyway. Hardly matters.
  - throw0101c 4y ago
    Per Truth Social's S-4 filing with the SEC (p. 110): > As further described in the section titled, “Information about TMTG,” President Trump is generally obligated to make any social media post on TruthSocial and may not make the same post on another social media site for 6 hours. Thereafter, he is free to post on any site to which he has access. Thus, TMTG has limited time to benefit from his posts and followers may not find it compelling to use TruthSocial to read his posts that quickly. In addition, he may make a post from a personal account related to political messaging, political fundraising or get-out-the-vote efforts on any social media site at any time. * https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1849635/000119312522150801/d226205ds4.htm#rom226205_13 https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1849635/000119312522... * Via: https://time.com/6226423/trump-twitter-return-musk/ https://time.com/6226423/trump-twitter-return-musk/
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      That last sentence sounds like a giant loophole.
      - chitowneats 4y ago
        Yeah. "Political messaging" could be interpreted to be just about anything.
    - akudha 4y ago
      This is the person who took classified documents including nuclear material home. Nothing happened to him, as usual. What effect is some rule on a shitty social media site going to have on him?
seydor 4y ago
and Vox Botuli?
andy_ppp 4y ago
“And those people should not be listened to who keep saying the voice of the people is the voice of God, since the riotousness of the crowd is always close to insanity.” I think Musk probably doesn’t believe Vox Populi, Vox Dei either but when it suits his extremely right wing agenda it’s a useful meme to wind everyone up on the left.
- bogantech 4y ago
  > extremely right wing agenda How is he "extremely right wing"? and what does that make the guys with tiki torches and guns? super extremely right wing? If he was extremely right wing he'd unban that Alex Jones nutjob too but he's already said no to that.[1] Elon is a crazy dumb moron but I wouldn't call him extremely right wing [1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593681389937102851 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593681389937102851
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
    I'd say he's more opportunistically right wing. Not that I can read his mind, but his actions seem to suggest he would un-ban Trump to increase 'engagement'. He won't un-ban Jones because that guy is stacking up some big losses in court and Elon doesn't want anywhere near a chance at getting pulled in to that. Ideologically Elon is a classic narcissist and will move left to right and all points in between depending on how advantageous it is to him to do so.
  - Kye 4y ago
    Alex Jones is so far off in unexplored territory that I don't think he can be defined in terms of political alignment. I doubt even the tiki torch people want anything to do with him.
    - acdha 4y ago
      He’s weird but he self-describes as a conservative and his major actions have been in line with increasingly mainstream Republican positions (e.g. attacking the credibility of Sandy Hook parents to limit their attempts to get gun control legislation, attacks on LGBTQ people). If anyone leading that party wanted to distance themselves from him, they could easily do so but they don’t because he’s useful for keeping a certain group of people riled up.
throw0101c 4y ago
More on Alcuin of York, to whom the quotation is attributed: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcuin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcuin Also: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_populi#Vox_populi,_vox_Dei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_populi#Vox_populi,_vox_Dei
a1445c8b 4y ago
Wait, so is this an argument against elections too? Or maybe an argument for electoral votes and against popular votes?
- domoritz 4y ago
  Not necessarily. You can have proportional votes for representatives and then let those representatives make decisions that don’t reflect majority opinions when e.g. those decisions protect minorities.
- oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
  To me, it sounds more like an argument against listening to the loudest voices. So our (UK-perspective) elections go some of the way to achieving a well-functioning democracy, since the literal act of voting is egalitarian. The issues surrounding how those votes are influenced by the loudest voices, however, still have to be resolved.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    > To me, it sounds more like an argument against listening to the loudest voices. But it's a vote to reinstate one of them?
    - oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
      ‘Vox Populi Vox Dei’ was used by Musk as a 'justification' to reinstate such a voice. The article, pointing out that the phrase originally had a different context, isn't making that argument.
      - a1445c8b 4y ago
        So is the point then of posting the article here on HN just to show the irony of Musk’s tweet?
        d23 4y ago
neets 4y ago
For additional context the villan in Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, Ellsworth Toohey, uses the phrase 'Vox Populi, Voa Dei' at the the peak of his character arc.
dalmo3 4y ago
This is so incomplete I kept looking for a "subscribe to read full article" link. Why not explain how it came to mean the exact opposite of what the (alleged) first known usage meant?
Mlller 4y ago
When Alcuin writes “Nec audiendi qui solent dicere” ‘And those people should not be listened to who keep saying’, he implies “sunt qui solent dicere” ‘there are those who keep saying’ and that the affirmative use of the proverb is older than his criticism. His letter, alas, seems to be the oldest still existing source of this formulation. Similar thoughts expressed earlier are quoted by Büchmann ²⁰1900 p. 353: - Hesiod ‘Works and Days’ v. 763–764: “Φήμη δʼ οὔτις πάμπαν ἀπόλλυται, ἥντινα πολλοὶ | Λαοὶ φημίζουσι. θεός νύ τίς ἐστι καὶ αὐτή.” ‘No rumour will perish completely which is rumoured by so many people. A kind of god indeed is also this [= the rumour].’ - Seneca (the older) ‘Controversies’ I.1.10: “Crede mihi, sacra populi lingua est.” ‘Believe me, sacred is the language [≈ speech?] of the people.’
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

39 points by saikatsg 4y ago

theCrowing 4y ago

If even one fanboy learns latin because of Musk trying to seem literate and edgy I'll take it as a win.

johnchristopher 4y ago
That's a very strange win to take considering the damage Trump did with his Twitter account and could do again if he gets back to it.
- qsort 4y ago
  Ridentem dicere verum, quid vetat?
- theCrowing 4y ago
  To stay on brand and topic: Armor fati.
  - a1445c8b 4y ago
    Lorem ipsum. Am I doing this right?
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    *Amor Fati (Unless I'm missing a joke)
    - sn41 4y ago
      [sic]
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Caveat Emptor.
gitfan86 4y ago
It has been very interesting watching people laughing at me for investing in "An Internet guy" trying to build cars in 2014. To now calling me a "Elon Fanboy" and saying that "the car guy doesn't understand internet companies". Yes, I'm a fan of the guy that helped me make millions of dollars, and who is forcing other car companies to electric. What do you expect my response to be? "I hate that all these gas cars are going away and I wish I had lost all my money"
- d23 4y ago
  > What do you expect my response to be? "I hate that all these gas cars are going away and I wish I had lost all my money" Let me whip up some copy for you: “I was a fan of his, but his childish behavior as of late has been disappointing.”
  - gitfan86 4y ago
    "as of late" During the Paypal days he slept in the office, expected everyone to work long hours, and got into arguments and was an asshole at times. This has been well known for over a decade. Why didn't the media run articles talking about how hard he was to work for during the past 10 years? Why just now? And, why is the NYT writing puff pieces about SBF? Do you ever think that maybe you are parroting what the media wants you to think?
    - Jotra7 4y ago
    - dagmx 4y ago
      I’ve read about his work ethics for ages, which means the media did report on it. Do you maybe think you’re parroting what groups of sycophants say to each other to rationalize their idols?
      - gitfan86 4y ago
        Given that my opinion hasn't changed much for 8 years, I suspect, I wasn't parroting the 'fanboy' rhetoric from 2022 back in 2015.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mikro2nd 4y ago

Vox bot, vox dei.

beardyw 4y ago

[flagged]

hoc 4y ago
They already comment on the typical results of the popular vote with that story of Pontius Pilate and the resulting crucificaion of their savior, though. Just to make the point that it needs a god/leader/church instead of the people to make the right choices, but anyway... At least we can pinpoint Twitter at having finally arrived at the level of a roman emperor's decadent way of giving to the people games with a wave of his hand after killing the senate and letting his personal troops run the place instead. There might be hints towards similarities and broader application of that same concept connected to the other main character of the same twitter story...
- carrja99 4y ago
  Holy crap do they really!?
oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
This has already happened in the UK. Jacob Rees-Mogg — a Conservative MP who was heavily in favour of Brexit, likes to cosplay as a Victorian gentleman, and is a practicing Catholic — likes to use it to pretend he's clever.
dang 4y ago
No religious flamewar, please. It's particularly nasty but also easily avoidable - like scurvy, or something. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

petecooper 4y ago

Context, for those that don't know (including me): https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1594131768298315777 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1594131768298315777

incomingpain 4y ago
I doubt trump ever returns to twitter anyway. Hardly matters.
- throw0101c 4y ago
  Per Truth Social's S-4 filing with the SEC (p. 110): > As further described in the section titled, “Information about TMTG,” President Trump is generally obligated to make any social media post on TruthSocial and may not make the same post on another social media site for 6 hours. Thereafter, he is free to post on any site to which he has access. Thus, TMTG has limited time to benefit from his posts and followers may not find it compelling to use TruthSocial to read his posts that quickly. In addition, he may make a post from a personal account related to political messaging, political fundraising or get-out-the-vote efforts on any social media site at any time. * https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1849635/000119312522150801/d226205ds4.htm#rom226205_13 https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1849635/000119312522... * Via: https://time.com/6226423/trump-twitter-return-musk/ https://time.com/6226423/trump-twitter-return-musk/
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    That last sentence sounds like a giant loophole.
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      Yeah. "Political messaging" could be interpreted to be just about anything.
  - akudha 4y ago
    This is the person who took classified documents including nuclear material home. Nothing happened to him, as usual. What effect is some rule on a shitty social media site going to have on him?

seydor 4y ago

and Vox Botuli?

andy_ppp 4y ago

“And those people should not be listened to who keep saying the voice of the people is the voice of God, since the riotousness of the crowd is always close to insanity.” I think Musk probably doesn’t believe Vox Populi, Vox Dei either but when it suits his extremely right wing agenda it’s a useful meme to wind everyone up on the left.

bogantech 4y ago
> extremely right wing agenda How is he "extremely right wing"? and what does that make the guys with tiki torches and guns? super extremely right wing? If he was extremely right wing he'd unban that Alex Jones nutjob too but he's already said no to that.[1] Elon is a crazy dumb moron but I wouldn't call him extremely right wing [1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593681389937102851 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593681389937102851
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  I'd say he's more opportunistically right wing. Not that I can read his mind, but his actions seem to suggest he would un-ban Trump to increase 'engagement'. He won't un-ban Jones because that guy is stacking up some big losses in court and Elon doesn't want anywhere near a chance at getting pulled in to that. Ideologically Elon is a classic narcissist and will move left to right and all points in between depending on how advantageous it is to him to do so.
- Kye 4y ago
  Alex Jones is so far off in unexplored territory that I don't think he can be defined in terms of political alignment. I doubt even the tiki torch people want anything to do with him.
  - acdha 4y ago
    He’s weird but he self-describes as a conservative and his major actions have been in line with increasingly mainstream Republican positions (e.g. attacking the credibility of Sandy Hook parents to limit their attempts to get gun control legislation, attacks on LGBTQ people). If anyone leading that party wanted to distance themselves from him, they could easily do so but they don’t because he’s useful for keeping a certain group of people riled up.

throw0101c 4y ago

More on Alcuin of York, to whom the quotation is attributed: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcuin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcuin Also: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_populi#Vox_populi,_vox_Dei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_populi#Vox_populi,_vox_Dei

a1445c8b 4y ago

Wait, so is this an argument against elections too? Or maybe an argument for electoral votes and against popular votes?

domoritz 4y ago
Not necessarily. You can have proportional votes for representatives and then let those representatives make decisions that don’t reflect majority opinions when e.g. those decisions protect minorities.
oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
To me, it sounds more like an argument against listening to the loudest voices. So our (UK-perspective) elections go some of the way to achieving a well-functioning democracy, since the literal act of voting is egalitarian. The issues surrounding how those votes are influenced by the loudest voices, however, still have to be resolved.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > To me, it sounds more like an argument against listening to the loudest voices. But it's a vote to reinstate one of them?
  - oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
    ‘Vox Populi Vox Dei’ was used by Musk as a 'justification' to reinstate such a voice. The article, pointing out that the phrase originally had a different context, isn't making that argument.
    - a1445c8b 4y ago
      So is the point then of posting the article here on HN just to show the irony of Musk’s tweet?
      - d23 4y ago

neets 4y ago

For additional context the villan in Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, Ellsworth Toohey, uses the phrase 'Vox Populi, Voa Dei' at the the peak of his character arc.

dalmo3 4y ago

This is so incomplete I kept looking for a "subscribe to read full article" link. Why not explain how it came to mean the exact opposite of what the (alleged) first known usage meant?

Mlller 4y ago

When Alcuin writes “Nec audiendi qui solent dicere” ‘And those people should not be listened to who keep saying’, he implies “sunt qui solent dicere” ‘there are those who keep saying’ and that the affirmative use of the proverb is older than his criticism. His letter, alas, seems to be the oldest still existing source of this formulation. Similar thoughts expressed earlier are quoted by Büchmann ²⁰1900 p. 353: - Hesiod ‘Works and Days’ v. 763–764: “Φήμη δʼ οὔτις πάμπαν ἀπόλλυται, ἥντινα πολλοὶ | Λαοὶ φημίζουσι. θεός νύ τίς ἐστι καὶ αὐτή.” ‘No rumour will perish completely which is rumoured by so many people. A kind of god indeed is also this [= the rumour].’ - Seneca (the older) ‘Controversies’ I.1.10: “Crede mihi, sacra populi lingua est.” ‘Believe me, sacred is the language [≈ speech?] of the people.’

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]