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Being something of a utilitarian myself, I see intervention being necessary when market incentives are not aligned with what's best for society. I've never see

by walterk 18y ago

Being something of a utilitarian myself, I see intervention being necessary when market incentives are not aligned with what's best for society. I've never seen anybody make a convincing case that such misalignments do not exist, or that a free market is always able to account for them more efficiently than the state. EDIT: Feel free to make such a case or link to one. I'd like to be proven wrong.

Prrometheus 18y ago
David Friedman is a utilitarian libertarian anarchist, son of the famous Milton Friedman. In "The Machinery of Freedom" he makes his case for an anarchist society. He does not claim that markets are always better without state intervention. His claim is subtly different: that a society without a state is better off than a society with one. He leaves open the possibility that the state might be better at some things than the market, but he argues that the drawbacks of a state outweigh the possible benefits. David's son, Patri, runs the anarcho-capitalist Seasteading Institute, which aims to create seastead societies on the ocean (think "Water World", without the suck). He believes that seasteads will be more resistant to government monopoly, since a group of people who did not like their government could simply float to a different one. Given the results so far, other libertarians encourage the Friedmans to breed as much as possible.
- boethian 18y ago
  I know I'm reviving a long ago post, but I was wondering.. was Milton Friedman completely utilitarian? Were there any instances in which he would support freedom, let's say, even though it might make people worse off?
- walterk 18y ago
  Added to my wishlist. Any other works you'd recommend? With respect to the seastead societies, which I've heard about, I think it's certainly plausible that they'll "work", given sufficient diversity of available governments, and hence, appropriately homogenous small-scale populations. But in a geopolitlcal landscape ruled by nation-states, I would be truly wary of breaking down powerful liberal democracies like the US into anything resembling these things. It's rather unclear to me how you could mobilize a sufficient defense against nationalist military forces. I recall reading in my undergrad days about similar small, voluntarily formed communities. (One of them, for instance, eschewed all laws and use of coercion, relying on subtle and not so subtle forms of ostracization to keep people in line.) But it occurred to me that these communities were entirely dependent on having a larger, more powerful neighboring entity around to protect them, and I have to believe these seastead societies are subject to the same dependency.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - Prrometheus 18y ago
    The Seasteading Institute has thought of all the common criticisms of their approach and tried to answer them. Whether you think they succeed is up to you. Here's the FAQ: http://www.seasteading.org/learn-more/faq http://www.seasteading.org/learn-more/faq Here's the book-length treatment: http://seasteading.org/seastead.org/commented/paper/index.html http://seasteading.org/seastead.org/commented/paper/index.ht... By the way, Patri's group has raised $500,000 from Peter Thiel to pursue their ideas. If you live in the bay area, you can attend social meetings of the Seasteading Institute, though I'm not sure what goes on there. Patri has very avant garde facial hair.
  - Prrometheus 18y ago
    By the way, there aren't that many libertarian anarchists that have written popular works. The only one I can think of besides David is Murray Rothbard, who wrote "For a New Liberty" detailing his anarchist vision. It's available in its entirety online. However, he is not a utilitarian, and I don't remember Murray being as convincing as David. As the libertarian movement has grown it has become more ideologically diverse and more moderate on average. There are few fire-breathing anarchists around any more (David is not a "fire-breating anarchist". Murray was.).
    - walterk 18y ago
      I guess what I'm looking for are works with a strongly empirical basis (doesn't have to be popular). Stuff that, at the very least, deals with the wealth of research on collective action problems and economic psychology. I'm hoping David's book does some of that.
      - Prrometheus 18y ago
        No, I don't think David's book is what you're looking for. It's more of an argument that anarchy is a plausible and desirable arrangement for society given the current state of microeconomic thought. He offers a theoretical basis for private law enforcement and law making, as well as other functions that are normally performed by the state. On the empirical side, he does have a very nice chapter on Iceland, which went without a public bureaucracy for a few centuries. Law enforcement was essentially a private business for awhile. It's a good read. I know that one of the big Public Choice guys did some writing on the feasibility of anarchy (Buchanan, I think). However, I'm not sure if it's the kind of work you are looking for. There's been few functional anarchies on this planet that we know about, and it's not a topic that gets most economists published. I'll let you know if I find anything. If you're looking for information on the problems of collective action, then the Public Choice guys are definitely the place to start (Buchanan, Tullock, etc.).

by walterk 18y ago

Prrometheus 18y ago

David Friedman is a utilitarian libertarian anarchist, son of the famous Milton Friedman. In "The Machinery of Freedom" he makes his case for an anarchist society. He does not claim that markets are always better without state intervention. His claim is subtly different: that a society without a state is better off than a society with one. He leaves open the possibility that the state might be better at some things than the market, but he argues that the drawbacks of a state outweigh the possible benefits. David's son, Patri, runs the anarcho-capitalist Seasteading Institute, which aims to create seastead societies on the ocean (think "Water World", without the suck). He believes that seasteads will be more resistant to government monopoly, since a group of people who did not like their government could simply float to a different one. Given the results so far, other libertarians encourage the Friedmans to breed as much as possible.

boethian 18y ago
I know I'm reviving a long ago post, but I was wondering.. was Milton Friedman completely utilitarian? Were there any instances in which he would support freedom, let's say, even though it might make people worse off?
walterk 18y ago
Added to my wishlist. Any other works you'd recommend? With respect to the seastead societies, which I've heard about, I think it's certainly plausible that they'll "work", given sufficient diversity of available governments, and hence, appropriately homogenous small-scale populations. But in a geopolitlcal landscape ruled by nation-states, I would be truly wary of breaking down powerful liberal democracies like the US into anything resembling these things. It's rather unclear to me how you could mobilize a sufficient defense against nationalist military forces. I recall reading in my undergrad days about similar small, voluntarily formed communities. (One of them, for instance, eschewed all laws and use of coercion, relying on subtle and not so subtle forms of ostracization to keep people in line.) But it occurred to me that these communities were entirely dependent on having a larger, more powerful neighboring entity around to protect them, and I have to believe these seastead societies are subject to the same dependency.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- Prrometheus 18y ago
  The Seasteading Institute has thought of all the common criticisms of their approach and tried to answer them. Whether you think they succeed is up to you. Here's the FAQ: http://www.seasteading.org/learn-more/faq http://www.seasteading.org/learn-more/faq Here's the book-length treatment: http://seasteading.org/seastead.org/commented/paper/index.html http://seasteading.org/seastead.org/commented/paper/index.ht... By the way, Patri's group has raised $500,000 from Peter Thiel to pursue their ideas. If you live in the bay area, you can attend social meetings of the Seasteading Institute, though I'm not sure what goes on there. Patri has very avant garde facial hair.
- Prrometheus 18y ago
  By the way, there aren't that many libertarian anarchists that have written popular works. The only one I can think of besides David is Murray Rothbard, who wrote "For a New Liberty" detailing his anarchist vision. It's available in its entirety online. However, he is not a utilitarian, and I don't remember Murray being as convincing as David. As the libertarian movement has grown it has become more ideologically diverse and more moderate on average. There are few fire-breathing anarchists around any more (David is not a "fire-breating anarchist". Murray was.).
  - walterk 18y ago
    I guess what I'm looking for are works with a strongly empirical basis (doesn't have to be popular). Stuff that, at the very least, deals with the wealth of research on collective action problems and economic psychology. I'm hoping David's book does some of that.
    - Prrometheus 18y ago
      No, I don't think David's book is what you're looking for. It's more of an argument that anarchy is a plausible and desirable arrangement for society given the current state of microeconomic thought. He offers a theoretical basis for private law enforcement and law making, as well as other functions that are normally performed by the state. On the empirical side, he does have a very nice chapter on Iceland, which went without a public bureaucracy for a few centuries. Law enforcement was essentially a private business for awhile. It's a good read. I know that one of the big Public Choice guys did some writing on the feasibility of anarchy (Buchanan, I think). However, I'm not sure if it's the kind of work you are looking for. There's been few functional anarchies on this planet that we know about, and it's not a topic that gets most economists published. I'll let you know if I find anything. If you're looking for information on the problems of collective action, then the Public Choice guys are definitely the place to start (Buchanan, Tullock, etc.).