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But how often do you actually make a 600 mile trip? (and how often in a day? That's a good 10 hours of driving) Carrying around all that extra battery weight fo

But how often do you actually make a 600 mile trip? (and how often in a day? That's a good 10 hours of driving) Carrying around all that extra battery weight for your daily 20 mile round-trip commute doesn't seem very efficient (energy or moneywise). And if you did make a 600 mile trip in a day, well, you've gotta stop to eat, right? The car can be charging while you're eating.

novok 4y ago
The basic idea is enough range for 2 4h segments on highways, going uphill into the cold mountains & and the heater on with a break in the middle for lunch and charging. The rating is 400 miles, but those 4 things will drop it a good chunk.
garrickvanburen 4y ago
I make a 400mile trips frequently enough that I don’t want a separate vehicle just for shorter trips.
tshaddox 4y ago
But the pitch needs to be better than “this car is great, and you can just buy or rent a second car for when you want to do a 600+ mile trip.”
- markdown 4y ago
  Why? This car covers 99.99% of your current car usage. If you want that extra .01% (driving all day without stopping), you can rent a polluting vehicle in 5 mins on your phone.
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    If it’s actually 99.99%, then sure. That’s an hour per year. If you’re only going to do a 24-hour road trip once every 24 years then of course renting is probably the best option.
    - markdown 4y ago
      LOL, I got carried away there. How many times a year do you do a 24hr road trip, or even an 8hr non-stop road trip?
- com2kid 4y ago
  I live in Seattle. Lots of hills. Hills everywhere. Going to the grocery store a mile away involves more elevation changes than people living in Florida go through in a year. Seriously, tons of hills in every direction. Driving around the city, my current compact ICE, 1.6L turbo, tiny hatchback, gets around 22 miles to the gallon. My other car, ICE, subcompact, 2L engine, 140 horse power, barely hits 20 MPG. For my city's topography, EVs make a ton of sense.
  - jjav 4y ago
    > Lots of hills. Hills everywhere. > For my city's topography, EVs make a ton of sense. I thought your conclusion would be the opposite. Hills kill EV range. I've had a few Fiat 500e EVs, with a flatland range of about 90 miles. But commuting here involves some good hills (~2000ft elevation change) so the true range was more like 40 miles. Which was just about barely enough to get to work. Good thing there was free charging at the office.
    - foobazgt 4y ago
      > Hills kill EV range. It sounds like your source is your personal experience? EVs are far better than ICEs at navigating hills, because the moment you can no longer coast and must apply friction braking (either through your brake pedal or engine gearing) you lose 100% of the energy going to friction. In comparison, EVs typically recover the majority of the breaking energy (mine recovers 70-80%). This is the same reason that both EVs and hybrids substantially outperform ICEs in city driving - lots of application of friction brakes. In addition, EVs tend to have a better coefficient of drag, so if you were tempted to go higher speeds down a hill, you'll find EVs get substantially better efficiency than ICEs there too. I'm struggling to think of a hill-traversing scenario that doesn't overwhelmingly favor EVs for efficiency both in theory and practice. Perhaps I misunderstood your complaint, and your concern is just the range and not the efficiency? In which case, I would offer that a 90m range EV is a local transportation vehicle not designed for that kind of travel. That kind of range is fairly niche nowadays, and I expect will eventually be largely phased out.
      - 4y ago
kristopolous 4y ago
The problem is people don't appreciate the new patterns you use with an EV. I pay zero for my fueling because I do it at work or a local free level 2 charger where I'll drop it off then walk home and do other things for a few hours and come back. I'm in an apartment btw. It's not the same as pulling up to a gas station but it's just about as easy, the cars handle better and it's a smoother ride. You might have to be a little cheap to bother to logistically coordinate free charging, but when I drove a gas car I never got free fuel. It's pretty remarkable that it's an option. Also they're way cheaper to maintain. I literally do not know where I'd even take my EV to get it repaired because its never happened. I'm on year 5 of EV driving btw. People believing in FUD over EVs, I have given up on. Whatever, be wrong, it's fine. Also, I don't like Teslas. There's lots of great options on the market, Hyundai and Kia's lineup are fine choices. I'm considering an Ioniq 6 myself, probably mid-next year just to make sure there's no issues.
- textbookrental 4y ago
  There is zero chance that everyone with a car today could get free charging at work.
  - kristopolous 4y ago
    Ok, so what? Why am I on the hook for single handidly solving the economics of global EV fueling in a tiny reply window, in this conversation, in order to defend my preference? I haven't had to pay for fuel in half a decade. Theoretical abstractions and rhetorical slights of hand don't change that. You can do whatever the heck you want.
    - duxup 4y ago
      Perhaps that explains why >people don't appreciate the new patterns you use with an EV The pattern you describe is not available.
      - kristopolous 4y ago
        Right, so what? Some people own homes and I can't do what they do. Others live close to a supercharger and I can't do that. Some work from home and there's no charger at the office and so they can't do what I do. This is like if I said I charge my smartphone on my nightstand when I go to sleep and you say "aha, what about people without nightstands! Checkmate!" A diversity of exacting detail doesn't make something infeasible. We still all say eat meals or communicate with words despite vast differences in how these things look and operate among all of humanity Again it's not my personal responsibility to itemize all theoretical dimensions here.
carabiner 4y ago
I don't think you realize how scant charging is if you live in an urban area. No charger at most apartments, and your workplace might not even have parking. Amazon offices in Seattle are notorious for occupied chargers. "Then why have a car?" We like to drive out to the mountains on the weekend, frequently. So then we drive a lot on the weekend and barely get a chance to charge on a weekday. You might have to set aside several hours at a parking lot at a mall to charge it which quite a chore. My Tacoma only has 380 mile range and I still get range anxiety sometimes with finding gas. RAV4 Prime with 600 mile range is the dream, but you can't buy them unless you pay $10k markup. Driving a lot + urban (not suburban) living makes electric cars a tough sell.
- thatfrenchguy 4y ago
  In the Bay Area, even in San Francisco it’s fine? There’s a bunch of fast chargers everywhere at Safeways and Whole Foods, most big companies have fast charging, and most old buildings with a garage have at least a 120v plug on your meter?
- therealrootuser 4y ago
  > you can't buy [RAV4 Prime] unless you pay $10k markup Quite frankly, many people can't buy a RAV4 Prime at any price regardless of markups due to availability. My local dealer just quoted me a wait time of up to 18 months for a non-pluggable RAV4 Hybrid because there are simply no chips to go around.
- com2kid 4y ago
  The Cascades are well under 90 miles from Seattle. A complete trip to the Cascades and back can be done in well under 250 miles, and regen breaking will be your best friend on the way back home! I'll grant that going to the Olympic national forest is 122 miles one way, so some range issues there for sure. > AV4 Prime with 600 mile range is the dream, Boise is 500 miles one way! The entire point of living in Seattle is to that nature is insanely close by. (Sure as heck isn't for the friendly faces on the street or the affordable tasty food!)
blix 4y ago
If you're doing a 600 mile road trip in the USA, it's already hard enough at times to find worthwhile places to eat without also limiting your choices to those with fast chargers nearby. Same for lodging if it's a really long trip. This isn't an important use case for a lot of people, but's it's much more important to me than commuting :)
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  Lodging only requires a Level 2 charger (because you charge the car while you sleep) and many hotels have them. Most don't even charge you for the electricity, in my experience. There are many more of these "destination chargers" in the US than fast DC chargers.
esalman 4y ago
I live in South TX, I'd have to drive 600 miles just to get out of the state. Even if I did it once a year, I'd rather not pay several hundred dollars for a rental.
TexanFeller 4y ago
People in areas like I grew up in often drive >100mi in a day since the nearest WalMart and decent chain restaurants are >30mi away. Major cities are 150mi away. My parents are currently driving around 250mi every single week day to get medical treatments in the city and will need to for the next few weeks. A hotel would save them that drive time, but driving is cheaper than that, so that's what they do. They wouldn't "charge while they stop to eat" because restaurants are much more expensive than their brown bag lunch they took.
- dashundchen 4y ago
  80% of the US lives in urbanized areas and a good chunk of the remaining 20% live in relatively close proximity to urbanized areas. Rural areas in the east and Great Lakes are mostly not far from metros. People like your parents are edge cases, although even their daily medical trip is just about feasible with an EV today. The number of people living in very rural West Texas or southwest are relatively small (and the mountain west is rapidly urbanizing unfortunately). EVs don't have to meet every use case just like an ICE diesel pickup truck or a steel crusier bicycle wouldn't fit everyone's transportation needs today. But they definitely can already meet the majority of Americans driving patterns today.

novok 4y ago

The basic idea is enough range for 2 4h segments on highways, going uphill into the cold mountains & and the heater on with a break in the middle for lunch and charging. The rating is 400 miles, but those 4 things will drop it a good chunk.

garrickvanburen 4y ago

I make a 400mile trips frequently enough that I don’t want a separate vehicle just for shorter trips.

tshaddox 4y ago

But the pitch needs to be better than “this car is great, and you can just buy or rent a second car for when you want to do a 600+ mile trip.”

markdown 4y ago
Why? This car covers 99.99% of your current car usage. If you want that extra .01% (driving all day without stopping), you can rent a polluting vehicle in 5 mins on your phone.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  If it’s actually 99.99%, then sure. That’s an hour per year. If you’re only going to do a 24-hour road trip once every 24 years then of course renting is probably the best option.
  - markdown 4y ago
    LOL, I got carried away there. How many times a year do you do a 24hr road trip, or even an 8hr non-stop road trip?
com2kid 4y ago
I live in Seattle. Lots of hills. Hills everywhere. Going to the grocery store a mile away involves more elevation changes than people living in Florida go through in a year. Seriously, tons of hills in every direction. Driving around the city, my current compact ICE, 1.6L turbo, tiny hatchback, gets around 22 miles to the gallon. My other car, ICE, subcompact, 2L engine, 140 horse power, barely hits 20 MPG. For my city's topography, EVs make a ton of sense.
- jjav 4y ago
  > Lots of hills. Hills everywhere. > For my city's topography, EVs make a ton of sense. I thought your conclusion would be the opposite. Hills kill EV range. I've had a few Fiat 500e EVs, with a flatland range of about 90 miles. But commuting here involves some good hills (~2000ft elevation change) so the true range was more like 40 miles. Which was just about barely enough to get to work. Good thing there was free charging at the office.
  - foobazgt 4y ago
    > Hills kill EV range. It sounds like your source is your personal experience? EVs are far better than ICEs at navigating hills, because the moment you can no longer coast and must apply friction braking (either through your brake pedal or engine gearing) you lose 100% of the energy going to friction. In comparison, EVs typically recover the majority of the breaking energy (mine recovers 70-80%). This is the same reason that both EVs and hybrids substantially outperform ICEs in city driving - lots of application of friction brakes. In addition, EVs tend to have a better coefficient of drag, so if you were tempted to go higher speeds down a hill, you'll find EVs get substantially better efficiency than ICEs there too. I'm struggling to think of a hill-traversing scenario that doesn't overwhelmingly favor EVs for efficiency both in theory and practice. Perhaps I misunderstood your complaint, and your concern is just the range and not the efficiency? In which case, I would offer that a 90m range EV is a local transportation vehicle not designed for that kind of travel. That kind of range is fairly niche nowadays, and I expect will eventually be largely phased out.
    - 4y ago

kristopolous 4y ago

The problem is people don't appreciate the new patterns you use with an EV. I pay zero for my fueling because I do it at work or a local free level 2 charger where I'll drop it off then walk home and do other things for a few hours and come back. I'm in an apartment btw. It's not the same as pulling up to a gas station but it's just about as easy, the cars handle better and it's a smoother ride. You might have to be a little cheap to bother to logistically coordinate free charging, but when I drove a gas car I never got free fuel. It's pretty remarkable that it's an option. Also they're way cheaper to maintain. I literally do not know where I'd even take my EV to get it repaired because its never happened. I'm on year 5 of EV driving btw. People believing in FUD over EVs, I have given up on. Whatever, be wrong, it's fine. Also, I don't like Teslas. There's lots of great options on the market, Hyundai and Kia's lineup are fine choices. I'm considering an Ioniq 6 myself, probably mid-next year just to make sure there's no issues.

textbookrental 4y ago
There is zero chance that everyone with a car today could get free charging at work.
- kristopolous 4y ago
  Ok, so what? Why am I on the hook for single handidly solving the economics of global EV fueling in a tiny reply window, in this conversation, in order to defend my preference? I haven't had to pay for fuel in half a decade. Theoretical abstractions and rhetorical slights of hand don't change that. You can do whatever the heck you want.
  - duxup 4y ago
    Perhaps that explains why >people don't appreciate the new patterns you use with an EV The pattern you describe is not available.
    - kristopolous 4y ago
      Right, so what? Some people own homes and I can't do what they do. Others live close to a supercharger and I can't do that. Some work from home and there's no charger at the office and so they can't do what I do. This is like if I said I charge my smartphone on my nightstand when I go to sleep and you say "aha, what about people without nightstands! Checkmate!" A diversity of exacting detail doesn't make something infeasible. We still all say eat meals or communicate with words despite vast differences in how these things look and operate among all of humanity Again it's not my personal responsibility to itemize all theoretical dimensions here.

carabiner 4y ago

I don't think you realize how scant charging is if you live in an urban area. No charger at most apartments, and your workplace might not even have parking. Amazon offices in Seattle are notorious for occupied chargers. "Then why have a car?" We like to drive out to the mountains on the weekend, frequently. So then we drive a lot on the weekend and barely get a chance to charge on a weekday. You might have to set aside several hours at a parking lot at a mall to charge it which quite a chore. My Tacoma only has 380 mile range and I still get range anxiety sometimes with finding gas. RAV4 Prime with 600 mile range is the dream, but you can't buy them unless you pay $10k markup. Driving a lot + urban (not suburban) living makes electric cars a tough sell.

thatfrenchguy 4y ago
In the Bay Area, even in San Francisco it’s fine? There’s a bunch of fast chargers everywhere at Safeways and Whole Foods, most big companies have fast charging, and most old buildings with a garage have at least a 120v plug on your meter?
therealrootuser 4y ago
> you can't buy [RAV4 Prime] unless you pay $10k markup Quite frankly, many people can't buy a RAV4 Prime at any price regardless of markups due to availability. My local dealer just quoted me a wait time of up to 18 months for a non-pluggable RAV4 Hybrid because there are simply no chips to go around.
com2kid 4y ago
The Cascades are well under 90 miles from Seattle. A complete trip to the Cascades and back can be done in well under 250 miles, and regen breaking will be your best friend on the way back home! I'll grant that going to the Olympic national forest is 122 miles one way, so some range issues there for sure. > AV4 Prime with 600 mile range is the dream, Boise is 500 miles one way! The entire point of living in Seattle is to that nature is insanely close by. (Sure as heck isn't for the friendly faces on the street or the affordable tasty food!)

blix 4y ago

If you're doing a 600 mile road trip in the USA, it's already hard enough at times to find worthwhile places to eat without also limiting your choices to those with fast chargers nearby. Same for lodging if it's a really long trip. This isn't an important use case for a lot of people, but's it's much more important to me than commuting :)

dreamcompiler 4y ago
Lodging only requires a Level 2 charger (because you charge the car while you sleep) and many hotels have them. Most don't even charge you for the electricity, in my experience. There are many more of these "destination chargers" in the US than fast DC chargers.

esalman 4y ago

I live in South TX, I'd have to drive 600 miles just to get out of the state. Even if I did it once a year, I'd rather not pay several hundred dollars for a rental.

TexanFeller 4y ago

People in areas like I grew up in often drive >100mi in a day since the nearest WalMart and decent chain restaurants are >30mi away. Major cities are 150mi away. My parents are currently driving around 250mi every single week day to get medical treatments in the city and will need to for the next few weeks. A hotel would save them that drive time, but driving is cheaper than that, so that's what they do. They wouldn't "charge while they stop to eat" because restaurants are much more expensive than their brown bag lunch they took.

dashundchen 4y ago
80% of the US lives in urbanized areas and a good chunk of the remaining 20% live in relatively close proximity to urbanized areas. Rural areas in the east and Great Lakes are mostly not far from metros. People like your parents are edge cases, although even their daily medical trip is just about feasible with an EV today. The number of people living in very rural West Texas or southwest are relatively small (and the mountain west is rapidly urbanizing unfortunately). EVs don't have to meet every use case just like an ICE diesel pickup truck or a steel crusier bicycle wouldn't fit everyone's transportation needs today. But they definitely can already meet the majority of Americans driving patterns today.