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Past present and future… Reminds me how Ellen Page the young woman was not in Inception, but Elliot Page the male actor played a woman’s role… I learned quite

Past present and future… Reminds me how Ellen Page the young woman was not in Inception, but Elliot Page the male actor played a woman’s role… I learned quite awhile ago that none of this was ever supposed to stand up to logical review. That’s the point.

Spivak 4y ago
Why doesn’t it stand up? The best supported theory (like theory of gravity theory) is that one’s gender is innate and unchangeable. Since we’re on a programming forum it’s read-only human firmware. So Elliot Page was born a man but assigned female at birth. Eventually he realized that the pain and wrongness he’d been feeling his whole life was dysphoria. So he changed his name to something that suited him better. Okay, so why then don’t we say that Elliot Page was in Inception but back then he went by Ellen? Why the rewriting history? We don’t do that for changing last names in marriage. Well because it’s a kindnesses for trans people. A huge number of them have extremely painful and negative associations with their deadname and so we backdate it so they can experience their past in a way that doesn’t bring up trauma. It’s similar to why when taking to a trans person you would probably edit a quotation you’re relaying that misgenders them.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  "A huge number of them have extremely painful and negative associations with their deadname and so we backdate it so they can experience their past in a way that doesn’t bring up trauma." Society really should not have to pretend they were never a woman just to protect a person's feelings. And why is acknowledging that they used to be a woman be so horrible? They have their own memories of their life before transitioning.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Uhh I meant backdating his name. He was never a woman that’s like the whole point. So you’re asking why bringing up that he used to be perceived as and treated as a woman which gave him gender dysphoria — a feeling so bad that it causes 80% of trans people to seriously consider taking their own like and 40% of people to actually try — horrible? You being up a good point about memories. But memories are mutable, first person, and we’re really bad at remembering how our bodies felt at different times so most of his memories probably feature him as he is now.
    - HyperSane 4y ago
    - throwaway22032 4y ago
      Your comment here pretty much hits on the crux of the issue. According to your ideology, he never was a woman. But... he was. He was a baby girl, a teenage girl, an adult woman, all or at least most of that whilst I assume suffering dysphoria. He is now an adult man who, unfortunately, likely still doesn't feel "complete". Grandpa suffered trauma during the war. So we don't bring up the war, at least in his presence. We don't pretend that he never served. You can be sensitive about history without rewriting it, we do it for everything else.
      - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
        Bold of you to assume some people wouldn’t want to rewrite history while telling you they are happy to rewrite history.
- crackercrews 4y ago
  If a man had a crush on Page 10 years ago, does that mean he was attracted to a man? If a lesbian had a crush on Page 10 years ago, does that mean she was attracted to a man?
  - Spivak 4y ago
    This isn’t a gotcha. No neither the man nor the woman was attracted to a man because what they were attracted to was their internal perception of Elliot which was a woman in their heads. If I draw a person you assume to be a woman based on their appearance and you’re attracted to them I can’t be like “haha he was actually a man your gay now.” That’s stupid and applies exactly the same to real life people. If you’re attracted to someone because you thought they were kind and it turns out they were actually mean people don’t go, “see what you’re really attracted to is mean people.” No you were just attracted to the person you thought they were.
    - crackercrews 4y ago
      I like your comparison to a mean person. But the true analogy is if someone is attracted to a person they know in 2010 who is a jerk at that time. Then the person becomes nice 10 years later. At that time the person is not attracted to the new personality. But the person says "I identify as a person who has always been nice, and you liked me 10 years ago, so therefore you like nice people." That doesn't add up, at least for me. Especially if you're not allowed to say that the person used to be mean since due to their current self-identification as nice.
HyperSane 4y ago
That just feels like Orwellian rewriting of history.
- drekipus 4y ago
  Ding ding ding

Spivak 4y ago

Why doesn’t it stand up? The best supported theory (like theory of gravity theory) is that one’s gender is innate and unchangeable. Since we’re on a programming forum it’s read-only human firmware. So Elliot Page was born a man but assigned female at birth. Eventually he realized that the pain and wrongness he’d been feeling his whole life was dysphoria. So he changed his name to something that suited him better. Okay, so why then don’t we say that Elliot Page was in Inception but back then he went by Ellen? Why the rewriting history? We don’t do that for changing last names in marriage. Well because it’s a kindnesses for trans people. A huge number of them have extremely painful and negative associations with their deadname and so we backdate it so they can experience their past in a way that doesn’t bring up trauma. It’s similar to why when taking to a trans person you would probably edit a quotation you’re relaying that misgenders them.

HyperSane 4y ago
"A huge number of them have extremely painful and negative associations with their deadname and so we backdate it so they can experience their past in a way that doesn’t bring up trauma." Society really should not have to pretend they were never a woman just to protect a person's feelings. And why is acknowledging that they used to be a woman be so horrible? They have their own memories of their life before transitioning.
- Spivak 4y ago
  Uhh I meant backdating his name. He was never a woman that’s like the whole point. So you’re asking why bringing up that he used to be perceived as and treated as a woman which gave him gender dysphoria — a feeling so bad that it causes 80% of trans people to seriously consider taking their own like and 40% of people to actually try — horrible? You being up a good point about memories. But memories are mutable, first person, and we’re really bad at remembering how our bodies felt at different times so most of his memories probably feature him as he is now.
  - HyperSane 4y ago
  - throwaway22032 4y ago
    Your comment here pretty much hits on the crux of the issue. According to your ideology, he never was a woman. But... he was. He was a baby girl, a teenage girl, an adult woman, all or at least most of that whilst I assume suffering dysphoria. He is now an adult man who, unfortunately, likely still doesn't feel "complete". Grandpa suffered trauma during the war. So we don't bring up the war, at least in his presence. We don't pretend that he never served. You can be sensitive about history without rewriting it, we do it for everything else.
    - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      Bold of you to assume some people wouldn’t want to rewrite history while telling you they are happy to rewrite history.
crackercrews 4y ago
If a man had a crush on Page 10 years ago, does that mean he was attracted to a man? If a lesbian had a crush on Page 10 years ago, does that mean she was attracted to a man?
- Spivak 4y ago
  This isn’t a gotcha. No neither the man nor the woman was attracted to a man because what they were attracted to was their internal perception of Elliot which was a woman in their heads. If I draw a person you assume to be a woman based on their appearance and you’re attracted to them I can’t be like “haha he was actually a man your gay now.” That’s stupid and applies exactly the same to real life people. If you’re attracted to someone because you thought they were kind and it turns out they were actually mean people don’t go, “see what you’re really attracted to is mean people.” No you were just attracted to the person you thought they were.
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    I like your comparison to a mean person. But the true analogy is if someone is attracted to a person they know in 2010 who is a jerk at that time. Then the person becomes nice 10 years later. At that time the person is not attracted to the new personality. But the person says "I identify as a person who has always been nice, and you liked me 10 years ago, so therefore you like nice people." That doesn't add up, at least for me. Especially if you're not allowed to say that the person used to be mean since due to their current self-identification as nice.

HyperSane 4y ago

That just feels like Orwellian rewriting of history.

drekipus 4y ago
Ding ding ding