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I would posit that OP isn't conflating biological sex and gender, but rather the trend nowadays is to reuse words that have had static meanings for centuries, a

I would posit that OP isn't conflating biological sex and gender, but rather the trend nowadays is to reuse words that have had static meanings for centuries, and then get unreasonably upset at folks who don't immediately agree with the new definitions.

socialismisok 4y ago
I would say I strongly believe in the new definitions, have I been unreasonably upset in my responses? I think I've articulated my position and held it firmly, but at no point did I feel upset about people who disagreed. I don't believe I called anyone a bigot or was any more rigid in my language than folks who hold a more traditional meaning of the word in their minds.
- snoozing 4y ago
  I think you’ve communicated your beliefs and experiences clearly and respectfully. You ask questions rather than name call and finger point. While I personally struggle with these new definitions and their potential cost to certain groups (someone pregnant like the post’s author), I feel like I can actually discuss and learn something new, and feel heard myself. We need more activists like you.
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    I suspect that what happens is that folks like me tend to get very tired. I'm happy to have good faith discussions all day, but in places like HN it can be difficult to maintain a conversation with all the anger directed at me. Inevitably, patience wears thin and comments get more bitter, and the polarization continues. I'm sure the reverse happens for folks who disagree with me. They get tired of everyone just assuming they are a bigot, and start just assuming that's what's coming from the other side. I wish there were more forums to have small, moderated chats where anyone who makes sweeping generalizations about their opponents ("you lefties always..." "All your right wingers...") were clipped out.
    - snoozing 4y ago
      I don’t know that it’s just patience wearing thin. There’s a lot of fearmongering on both sides. I think people already come to the table really amped up quick to throw stones. Hear, hear on the forums part, though.
nicoburns 4y ago
My view is similar to yours, but I think slightly more neutral: It seems to me that the words in question ("man", "woman", etc), were used to refer to both biological sex and gender for centuries under the assumption that they always co-occurred. The conflict has arisen now that we've realised they don't always co-occur because different people have taken different views on which of part was primary or definitional. Neither view is inherently wrong. But taken together they're hugely problematic because we're using the same words to mean different things, which is leading to lots of confusion. (there is additional conflict as some people have decided that we ought to not talk about one or other of biological sex and gender at all - which one depends on who you ask of course) Ultimately the solution will need to be a second (and perhaps a third) set of words that are clear in their meanings. I don't think it really matters too much which word means what, so long as we all agree on the meanings. Possibly it would be better to ditch "man" and "woman" entirely so nobody feels hard done by that other people can use them but they can't.
- orand 4y ago
  The modern distinction of gender identity as separate from sex was invented by John Money in the 1960s.

socialismisok 4y ago

I would say I strongly believe in the new definitions, have I been unreasonably upset in my responses? I think I've articulated my position and held it firmly, but at no point did I feel upset about people who disagreed. I don't believe I called anyone a bigot or was any more rigid in my language than folks who hold a more traditional meaning of the word in their minds.

snoozing 4y ago
I think you’ve communicated your beliefs and experiences clearly and respectfully. You ask questions rather than name call and finger point. While I personally struggle with these new definitions and their potential cost to certain groups (someone pregnant like the post’s author), I feel like I can actually discuss and learn something new, and feel heard myself. We need more activists like you.
- socialismisok 4y ago
  I suspect that what happens is that folks like me tend to get very tired. I'm happy to have good faith discussions all day, but in places like HN it can be difficult to maintain a conversation with all the anger directed at me. Inevitably, patience wears thin and comments get more bitter, and the polarization continues. I'm sure the reverse happens for folks who disagree with me. They get tired of everyone just assuming they are a bigot, and start just assuming that's what's coming from the other side. I wish there were more forums to have small, moderated chats where anyone who makes sweeping generalizations about their opponents ("you lefties always..." "All your right wingers...") were clipped out.
  - snoozing 4y ago
    I don’t know that it’s just patience wearing thin. There’s a lot of fearmongering on both sides. I think people already come to the table really amped up quick to throw stones. Hear, hear on the forums part, though.

nicoburns 4y ago

My view is similar to yours, but I think slightly more neutral: It seems to me that the words in question ("man", "woman", etc), were used to refer to both biological sex and gender for centuries under the assumption that they always co-occurred. The conflict has arisen now that we've realised they don't always co-occur because different people have taken different views on which of part was primary or definitional. Neither view is inherently wrong. But taken together they're hugely problematic because we're using the same words to mean different things, which is leading to lots of confusion. (there is additional conflict as some people have decided that we ought to not talk about one or other of biological sex and gender at all - which one depends on who you ask of course) Ultimately the solution will need to be a second (and perhaps a third) set of words that are clear in their meanings. I don't think it really matters too much which word means what, so long as we all agree on the meanings. Possibly it would be better to ditch "man" and "woman" entirely so nobody feels hard done by that other people can use them but they can't.

orand 4y ago
The modern distinction of gender identity as separate from sex was invented by John Money in the 1960s.