14 ms·

Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

93 points by LeonW 15y ago

kloncks 15y ago
As an American, our immigration policies make me so damn mad. I know both Leo and Joel quite well, having went through AngelPad together, and they were building a solid company that should have stayed in America. The fact that wealth-builders, and innovative startup founders that seek to create new frontiers can't legally find a way of staying in this country is preposterous.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- jacques_chester 15y ago
  I regularly read the complaints about the rent in SV and think: 1. I pay that much rent. In a small city. 2. ... with limited programming work 3. ... with higher expenses 4. ... with lower wages If I could simply move to SV to work, I would. But I can't.
dhkl 15y ago
Hong Kong has several vibrant, English-speaking startup/hacker communities where people are passionate about building stuff and making things work. Some notable communities to checkout: http://codeaholics.hk/ http://codeaholics.hk/ - Technology agnostic programming community http://www.startupshk.com/ http://www.startupshk.com/ - A tight-knit startup community http://boot.hk/ http://boot.hk/ - A great gathering place for hackers and builders. See you in Hong Kong!
- thomaspun 15y ago
  Right on! Leon, I'm connected to the HK startup folks (founders of StartUps HK and Boot) there as well. Feel free to ping. Here is their FB group which most communication is done: https://www.facebook.com/groups/startupshk/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/startupshk/ It's a closed group but I could add you.
  - dhkl 15y ago
    Is the group still active? My request's been on pending for a while now :-(
    - fannyma 15y ago
      ya the group is very active. maybe you can ping the group owner directly as it's a closed group :)
    - thomaspun 15y ago
      Group is very active. I think they require people to physically show up to their Startup Monday event to be added to the group. Ping me offline and I could connect you to the group organizers. Or tweet them at: http://twitter.com/startupshk http://twitter.com/startupshk
    - Jonbuford 15y ago
      I'm one of the founders. For the FB group we try to keep it the immediate community active members. Send me a message on FB and let me know who you are. One other problem we run into on FB is that people use random photos and user names so we have no idea who half of them are, even if we have met the people before.
  - LeonW 15y ago
    Hi Thomas and dhkl, thanks a lot for the resources, will look into this and get in touch, that's very useful! :)
- Jonbuford 15y ago
  Also we have a hackerspace: http:www.dimsumlabs.com I'm one of the founders for all of the above, in one role or another.
hnwh 15y ago
holy shit dude.. best of luck to you guys. Great story reflecting on 2011, and congrats with how far you've brought Buffer
- LeonW 15y ago
  thanks a ton man! :)
rdl 15y ago
Hong Kong is my favorite place in the world to live or work. If I were working on something other than computer security, I'd have a hard time not doing it there. I'm sure you will be very successful there.
- LeonW 15y ago
  thanks for the enouragement!
brador 15y ago
That article is a light on details... Anyone got any specifics on the logistics of moving to HK and setting up? How's the money flow over there? VC/angel funding space?
- thomaspun 15y ago
  Setting up companies and working visa should be pretty easy in HK. I have never heard anyone having issue regarding that. There has always been funding but investors don't usually add as much values as ones here do. The main reason could be these investors made their fortune from other non tech business like stock or real estate real estate. They are usually great business minded people but they may have a hard time advising tech startups.
- Jonbuford 15y ago
  Funding with experienced investors is not as common. We are seeing a big jump in investments over the last 6 months from investors that have started coming in and are really able to take their pick of deals. I think we will see more of this happen and continue to grow. One thing that is lacking are founders of successful companies that are investing in new ones, but it takes time to grow the ecosystem.
ebaysucks 15y ago
Could people from the Hong Kong startup community please comment on HK vs Shanghai for doing a startup? I've lived in HK during my student exchange and loved every minute of it - I also have an employee working from Hong Kong. At some point I'll set up teams to target Asian markets with China as the most important one. What are pro's and con's of HK vs Shanghai? Edit: Thanks for all the answers! I really want to go back to HK now :)
- _delirium 15y ago
  My non-expert, second-hand information is that it's very hard to start a business in Shanghai without either a Chinese citizen as cofounder, or a joint-venture arrangement with an existing Chinese company.
- thomaspun 15y ago
  Great Fire Wall which blocks Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Dropbox... However, I think China Government does welcome startups in Shanghai/Beijing with more goodies and support than Hong Kong's gov.
  - samstave 15y ago
    Now that HK went back to chinese rule years ago - how is HK not behind the same great FW?
    - _delirium 15y ago
      They still have a (somewhat) separate judicial system and government, which results in a considerably freer media and society; for example, many of the newspapers print anti-PRC editorials that wouldn't be allowed in mainland China, and there are open demonstrations on things like the Tiananmen anniversary.
      - samstave 15y ago
        Thanks! I didnt know. I spent 3+ weeks in HK in October of 2000 - but most of that time was partying - so I really didnt learn much about the place whilst there.
OoTheNigerian 15y ago
Have fun guys. I am sure you guys will do well in any country. Once I settle, I will definitely invite you to Nigeria. Your visas will be taken care of ;)
- samstave 15y ago
  You should have chosen "419TheNigerian" as your username :)
  - maxklein 15y ago
    That is EXTREMELY offensive
    - samstave 15y ago
      Oh jesus christ. Has anyone introduced you to the internet yet?
      - jQueryIsAwesome 15y ago
        Oh yeah! That place where you can be extremely offensive without being punished for it. I am a Colombian, quick! make a joke about drug trafficking!
- LeonW 15y ago
  Thanks Oo, yes, that would be awesome one day! :)
sim0n 15y ago
Good luck in HK guys! Who knows, we may have to join the HK startup scene ourselves if we also can't get a work visa, ha :)
LeonW 15y ago
Guys, thanks so much for all the tips and best wishes, you are amazing. If you have any more tips on accommodation and startup circles on top of the awesome ones mentioned, please let me know below or ping me leo at bufferapp.com.
albahk 15y ago
Hong Kong is a great place for business and for most important purposes (GFW, law, freedom of speech, immigration, language, etc) it is a different 'country' to China. Another place to check out is the govt sponsored incubator at Cyberport http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/entrepreneurship_centre http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/ent... Look forward to seeing you around HK
jacques_chester 15y ago
Personally I'd go to Singapore -- low personal taxes, no capital gains tax, no tax on income from dividends, low regulation, lots of capital, close to both Australia and Asia and it's a global flight hub.
- dantheman 15y ago
  Singapore is a dictatorship, and I think one should always consider the political and legal frameworks of a country in case one runs afoul of the law. I don't know about Singapore, but in some countries merely criticizing the government can get you into trouble, e.g. Thailand.
  - jacques_chester 15y ago
    "Dictatorship" is not strictly accurate. The downside to Singapore is that they are authoritarians. Confucian capitalists, you might say. William Gibson famously called it "Disneyland with the Death Penalty" in a Wired article of that title.
  - mhartl 15y ago
    In this context, "dictatorship" is akin to an epithet, and using it risks short-circuiting rational discourse. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with personal rule: Napoleon wasn't Hitler, Queen Elizabeth I wasn't Stalin, and Marcus Aurelius wasn't Chairman Mao. Singapore is a de facto single-party state with a strong prime minister. Is that good or bad? That depends on whether we're talking Aurelius or Mao. Having spent the better part of a week in Singapore this past summer, I can tell you that it was the only place on my itinerary where I thought, "I'd love to have a place here." (The other destinations were Thailand, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Ireland.) If I were to have a residence or business in Singapore, probably my biggest fear would be not government oppression, but rather the People's Action Party losing control, probably to the quasi-communist Workers' Party—i.e., a triumph of "democracy" over the highly effective government Singapore has today.
    - dantheman 15y ago
      Just to be clear, I was in no way trying to tie them to a brutal dictatorship. But I think it's important to understand the political structure of the country, not just the current economic/civil environment. For the political structure may help you determine what the civil/economic condition will be as things change, i.e. a change of leadership in an authoritarian regime will have more of an impact on economic and civil life than a change of leadership in a democracy (I don't know if this is true btw).
latch 15y ago
I've been in Hong Kong for a year and a half. As a city, it's quite nice. Low taxes, extremely safe, vibrant culture. Pollution is really the biggest downside for me (you get used to the # of people quickly, and I'm from a small city and I hate people so...) However, professionally speaking? Forget about it. It's a horrible place for programmers. In the last couple months I've met with 2 entrepreneurs looking to move to Hong Kong as well as 2 founders already in Hong Kong. I purposefully did not lead, but all four conversations immediately went to the lack of available talent. And, we weren't talking about the lack of talent the way it is in SF or NY (where there's talent, but it's working for someone else), we are talking about the fact that if you could pick a dream team of all programmers living in Hong Kong, it wouldn't be very dreamy. Most of the senior programmers are long-time bank employees. Their X years of experience is the same year X times. They are risk adverse and creatively challenged. What's really troubling though is that the young programmers (interns, new graduates) have a strong desire to work for the bank. It's culture...working for the bank is what they want to do. Non CS students will take programming internships because "that's what was available at the bank". Of course you can point to some small communities or some example company, but you really have to realize that hiring is going to be a challenge you might not be able to overcome. You'll almost certainly have to get your "senior" programmers from abroad, and recruiting your talent is going to be unlike anything you've seen state-side.
- Jonbuford 15y ago
  Agree, hiring developers is going to currently be difficult, but I expect that this will steadily improve as demand grows. Coming here tends to be trivially easy, and there are a lot of things that being in either SF or NY would give a US focus to when there are a few other people globally that are potential customers. Working in undeveloped markets tends to be both more difficult, but also can be much more rewarding.
- Adaptive 15y ago
  @latch is right on about the bank coders. I was based in Asia for 12 years hiring web development and design teams. Six of my 12 years were in HK. Finding top talent is very challenging there. I tended to hire young and train, anything else never worked out. HK is not a cheap city to live in. I realize that it can be done cheaply, but that loses its charm quickly. Like, goodbye farmers markets and even semi-affordable organic food. Also, if anyone else is considering HK, keep in mind that the investment model is almost purely driven by connections. Conversely, I knew several niche development companies that had set up shop in Thailand, outside of Bangkok, and had unbelievably low overhead and very talented developers. That was years ago, but it always struck me as a savvy model. Anyone else looking at Asia should consider Singapore as well. They have some amazing investment programs run by the government at any given time.
mekoka 15y ago
Looking at the world and deciding where to go. Having no one that tells you what to do and nothing that holds you back from not doing it. Wherever you go on the planet, there will be people seeing a human being in you. Welcoming you and making a son, a brother, a father, a lover, a friend out of you. There will also be a government to remind you you don't belong.
- msutherl 15y ago
  There will also be a government to protect you from being mugged, killed and discarded in the street.
  - ataggart 15y ago
    I'm curious at to what statistical facts inform that opinion. Police certainly may show up after being a victim of a crime, but being protected from crimes seems a harder case to make without resorting to unfalsifiable claims (sort of like those put forth by defenders of patent law).
    - x3c 15y ago
      If there were no police and no government, you're saying the crime rate woud be same? No, I have no facts to support that the crime rate would increase. Just tons of post-apocalyptic movie experiences and intuition.
medius 15y ago
It's just incredibly sad when you see such people leave the country because of immigration issues. I have been reading their posts and can say this with confidence that Leo and Joel are just getting started with Buffer.
whoisterencelee 15y ago
Anyone hackers here residing in Macau?
- Jonbuford 15y ago
  I only know marketing agencies there, but haven't run into any groups of either hardware or software hackers. Would be interested to find out what is there as well.
  - whoisterencelee 15y ago
    I agree, that's why I want to start a hacker group in Macau
nirvana 15y ago
We also recently left the USA because one of our party is a UK citizen. We spent 6 months in the UK as US citizens with no problem, but when we came to the USA, we had to leave after 3 months, or send the UK resident co-founder out of the country at least. This visa thing is kinda absurd. What is the visa situation like in Hong Kong? I've read elsewhere that getting a visa for China is very difficult (this might be an area where HH is different from CN). Are you able to get reasonably long visas so that you can stay there indefinitely, or will you have to relocate again in 6 months or a year? FWIW, others have recommended Singapore, and one nice thing about Singapore is that they have a pro-entrepreneur Visa process, though it seems a bit focused on business that will be hiring singaporeans, so the traditional tiny consumer internet startup might have trouble meeting their requirements. Singapore is an expensive place to live, housing wise (though I hear food is super cheap and super plentiful with a massive "Street food"/mall-food-court culture).... though I imagine HK real estate isn't cheap either. The approach we're taking is that we're going places where our core costs are low-- apartment for the founders plus food, etc, and trying to make our funds last longer that way, and then working with people remotely to expand our staff.
- josscrowcroft 15y ago
  In HK you can dive in/out pretty much indefinitely, as long as you don't (and I really mean DON'T) overstay, even by 1 minute. My US friends have been doing it for two years, I'm English and have been doing it for 15 months (but we brits get 6 months at a time) They'll screw you if you overstay. tl;dr: HK != China.
  - saryant 15y ago
    I'm curious, what counts as leaving HK? A quick hop on the ferry to Macao or do you have to go further like Taipei or Hanoi?
    - josscrowcroft 15y ago
      Most people do the Macau run, yeah. Air Asia flights are dirt cheap to e.g. Bangkok.
krumjahn 15y ago
I'm part of the incubation program at Cyberport in Hong Kong. You can check it out here: http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/entrepreneurship_centre http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/ent.... I've been back for 5 months and I love it.
- mark_l_watson 15y ago
  I have a friend doing long term AI research in the HK area and he talks it up so positively that I have considered going there for 4 or 5 months to live and work on my own projects. Does the Cyberport rent inexpensive shared office space suitable for one person to have a nice work environment? I work out of a home office in Arizona, and have a great working environment but living for 4 or 5 months in a foreign country probably means a small apartment so I don't think that I would want to work at "home." BTW, my wife really likes Hong Kong (we were there 15 months ago) so this would be an easy sell for me to talk her into it.
  - Jonbuford 15y ago
    We have a few cowork options, and expect some more spaces to open within the next 6 months. BootHK (http://boot.hk http://boot.hk) is my space I opened and is mostly hotdesk space for early startups. HK Commons is a little more for established companies that are still 2-4 people and growing. There are also more traditional serviced office type offerings, but that isn't quite as interactive with the general community.
  - aaronsung 15y ago
    Beside Cyberport there is also a place called Science Park which also provide cheap places for start-up. From my second hand information the rent for a 1,000 sq. ft. office is about $1,100 US dollar (electricity inclusive) I am from HK and if you want to know more about HK you can contact me.
bluekite2000 15y ago
I m surprised no one mentions vibrant Vietnam with its endless tropical beaches, amazing food, fast internet at nearly all coffee shops and friendly people. The population is young, cost of living is still low and many big tech companies have shops here (Yahoo, Microsoft, Intel,etc) Plus it is a breeze getting a visa.
- mekoka 15y ago
  As someone looking for some alternate destinations to work as a developer, I'm genuinely curious about Vietnam. Where should I stay and what would be the downsides?
somecoolguy 15y ago
Kind of off topic, but I am thinking about traveling to China (mainland, not HK) over the summer and working on my own business while doing touristy stuff. My business is completely online and based in the US, so I am wondering if I should get a business visa or just a normal tourist visa. I won't be going to business meetings or anything like that in China, but should I get a business visa just to be safe?

93 points by LeonW 15y ago

As an American, our immigration policies make me so damn mad. I know both Leo and Joel quite well, having went through AngelPad together, and they were building a solid company that should have stayed in America. The fact that wealth-builders, and innovative startup founders that seek to create new frontiers can't legally find a way of staying in this country is preposterous.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
jacques_chester 15y ago
I regularly read the complaints about the rent in SV and think: 1. I pay that much rent. In a small city. 2. ... with limited programming work 3. ... with higher expenses 4. ... with lower wages If I could simply move to SV to work, I would. But I can't.

dhkl 15y ago

Hong Kong has several vibrant, English-speaking startup/hacker communities where people are passionate about building stuff and making things work. Some notable communities to checkout: http://codeaholics.hk/ http://codeaholics.hk/ - Technology agnostic programming community http://www.startupshk.com/ http://www.startupshk.com/ - A tight-knit startup community http://boot.hk/ http://boot.hk/ - A great gathering place for hackers and builders. See you in Hong Kong!

thomaspun 15y ago
Right on! Leon, I'm connected to the HK startup folks (founders of StartUps HK and Boot) there as well. Feel free to ping. Here is their FB group which most communication is done: https://www.facebook.com/groups/startupshk/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/startupshk/ It's a closed group but I could add you.
- dhkl 15y ago
  Is the group still active? My request's been on pending for a while now :-(
  - fannyma 15y ago
    ya the group is very active. maybe you can ping the group owner directly as it's a closed group :)
  - thomaspun 15y ago
    Group is very active. I think they require people to physically show up to their Startup Monday event to be added to the group. Ping me offline and I could connect you to the group organizers. Or tweet them at: http://twitter.com/startupshk http://twitter.com/startupshk
  - Jonbuford 15y ago
    I'm one of the founders. For the FB group we try to keep it the immediate community active members. Send me a message on FB and let me know who you are. One other problem we run into on FB is that people use random photos and user names so we have no idea who half of them are, even if we have met the people before.
- LeonW 15y ago
  Hi Thomas and dhkl, thanks a lot for the resources, will look into this and get in touch, that's very useful! :)
Jonbuford 15y ago
Also we have a hackerspace: http:www.dimsumlabs.com I'm one of the founders for all of the above, in one role or another.

hnwh 15y ago

holy shit dude.. best of luck to you guys. Great story reflecting on 2011, and congrats with how far you've brought Buffer

LeonW 15y ago
thanks a ton man! :)

rdl 15y ago

Hong Kong is my favorite place in the world to live or work. If I were working on something other than computer security, I'd have a hard time not doing it there. I'm sure you will be very successful there.

LeonW 15y ago
thanks for the enouragement!

brador 15y ago

That article is a light on details... Anyone got any specifics on the logistics of moving to HK and setting up? How's the money flow over there? VC/angel funding space?

thomaspun 15y ago
Setting up companies and working visa should be pretty easy in HK. I have never heard anyone having issue regarding that. There has always been funding but investors don't usually add as much values as ones here do. The main reason could be these investors made their fortune from other non tech business like stock or real estate real estate. They are usually great business minded people but they may have a hard time advising tech startups.
Jonbuford 15y ago
Funding with experienced investors is not as common. We are seeing a big jump in investments over the last 6 months from investors that have started coming in and are really able to take their pick of deals. I think we will see more of this happen and continue to grow. One thing that is lacking are founders of successful companies that are investing in new ones, but it takes time to grow the ecosystem.

ebaysucks 15y ago

Could people from the Hong Kong startup community please comment on HK vs Shanghai for doing a startup? I've lived in HK during my student exchange and loved every minute of it - I also have an employee working from Hong Kong. At some point I'll set up teams to target Asian markets with China as the most important one. What are pro's and con's of HK vs Shanghai? Edit: Thanks for all the answers! I really want to go back to HK now :)

_delirium 15y ago
My non-expert, second-hand information is that it's very hard to start a business in Shanghai without either a Chinese citizen as cofounder, or a joint-venture arrangement with an existing Chinese company.
thomaspun 15y ago
Great Fire Wall which blocks Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Dropbox... However, I think China Government does welcome startups in Shanghai/Beijing with more goodies and support than Hong Kong's gov.
- samstave 15y ago
  Now that HK went back to chinese rule years ago - how is HK not behind the same great FW?
  - _delirium 15y ago
    They still have a (somewhat) separate judicial system and government, which results in a considerably freer media and society; for example, many of the newspapers print anti-PRC editorials that wouldn't be allowed in mainland China, and there are open demonstrations on things like the Tiananmen anniversary.
    - samstave 15y ago
      Thanks! I didnt know. I spent 3+ weeks in HK in October of 2000 - but most of that time was partying - so I really didnt learn much about the place whilst there.

OoTheNigerian 15y ago

Have fun guys. I am sure you guys will do well in any country. Once I settle, I will definitely invite you to Nigeria. Your visas will be taken care of ;)

samstave 15y ago
You should have chosen "419TheNigerian" as your username :)
- maxklein 15y ago
  That is EXTREMELY offensive
  - samstave 15y ago
    Oh jesus christ. Has anyone introduced you to the internet yet?
    - jQueryIsAwesome 15y ago
      Oh yeah! That place where you can be extremely offensive without being punished for it. I am a Colombian, quick! make a joke about drug trafficking!
LeonW 15y ago
Thanks Oo, yes, that would be awesome one day! :)

sim0n 15y ago

Good luck in HK guys! Who knows, we may have to join the HK startup scene ourselves if we also can't get a work visa, ha :)

LeonW 15y ago

Guys, thanks so much for all the tips and best wishes, you are amazing. If you have any more tips on accommodation and startup circles on top of the awesome ones mentioned, please let me know below or ping me leo at bufferapp.com.

albahk 15y ago

Hong Kong is a great place for business and for most important purposes (GFW, law, freedom of speech, immigration, language, etc) it is a different 'country' to China. Another place to check out is the govt sponsored incubator at Cyberport http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/entrepreneurship_centre http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/ent... Look forward to seeing you around HK

jacques_chester 15y ago

Personally I'd go to Singapore -- low personal taxes, no capital gains tax, no tax on income from dividends, low regulation, lots of capital, close to both Australia and Asia and it's a global flight hub.

dantheman 15y ago
Singapore is a dictatorship, and I think one should always consider the political and legal frameworks of a country in case one runs afoul of the law. I don't know about Singapore, but in some countries merely criticizing the government can get you into trouble, e.g. Thailand.
- jacques_chester 15y ago
  "Dictatorship" is not strictly accurate. The downside to Singapore is that they are authoritarians. Confucian capitalists, you might say. William Gibson famously called it "Disneyland with the Death Penalty" in a Wired article of that title.
- mhartl 15y ago
  In this context, "dictatorship" is akin to an epithet, and using it risks short-circuiting rational discourse. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with personal rule: Napoleon wasn't Hitler, Queen Elizabeth I wasn't Stalin, and Marcus Aurelius wasn't Chairman Mao. Singapore is a de facto single-party state with a strong prime minister. Is that good or bad? That depends on whether we're talking Aurelius or Mao. Having spent the better part of a week in Singapore this past summer, I can tell you that it was the only place on my itinerary where I thought, "I'd love to have a place here." (The other destinations were Thailand, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Ireland.) If I were to have a residence or business in Singapore, probably my biggest fear would be not government oppression, but rather the People's Action Party losing control, probably to the quasi-communist Workers' Party—i.e., a triumph of "democracy" over the highly effective government Singapore has today.
  - dantheman 15y ago
    Just to be clear, I was in no way trying to tie them to a brutal dictatorship. But I think it's important to understand the political structure of the country, not just the current economic/civil environment. For the political structure may help you determine what the civil/economic condition will be as things change, i.e. a change of leadership in an authoritarian regime will have more of an impact on economic and civil life than a change of leadership in a democracy (I don't know if this is true btw).

latch 15y ago

I've been in Hong Kong for a year and a half. As a city, it's quite nice. Low taxes, extremely safe, vibrant culture. Pollution is really the biggest downside for me (you get used to the # of people quickly, and I'm from a small city and I hate people so...) However, professionally speaking? Forget about it. It's a horrible place for programmers. In the last couple months I've met with 2 entrepreneurs looking to move to Hong Kong as well as 2 founders already in Hong Kong. I purposefully did not lead, but all four conversations immediately went to the lack of available talent. And, we weren't talking about the lack of talent the way it is in SF or NY (where there's talent, but it's working for someone else), we are talking about the fact that if you could pick a dream team of all programmers living in Hong Kong, it wouldn't be very dreamy. Most of the senior programmers are long-time bank employees. Their X years of experience is the same year X times. They are risk adverse and creatively challenged. What's really troubling though is that the young programmers (interns, new graduates) have a strong desire to work for the bank. It's culture...working for the bank is what they want to do. Non CS students will take programming internships because "that's what was available at the bank". Of course you can point to some small communities or some example company, but you really have to realize that hiring is going to be a challenge you might not be able to overcome. You'll almost certainly have to get your "senior" programmers from abroad, and recruiting your talent is going to be unlike anything you've seen state-side.

Jonbuford 15y ago
Agree, hiring developers is going to currently be difficult, but I expect that this will steadily improve as demand grows. Coming here tends to be trivially easy, and there are a lot of things that being in either SF or NY would give a US focus to when there are a few other people globally that are potential customers. Working in undeveloped markets tends to be both more difficult, but also can be much more rewarding.
Adaptive 15y ago
@latch is right on about the bank coders. I was based in Asia for 12 years hiring web development and design teams. Six of my 12 years were in HK. Finding top talent is very challenging there. I tended to hire young and train, anything else never worked out. HK is not a cheap city to live in. I realize that it can be done cheaply, but that loses its charm quickly. Like, goodbye farmers markets and even semi-affordable organic food. Also, if anyone else is considering HK, keep in mind that the investment model is almost purely driven by connections. Conversely, I knew several niche development companies that had set up shop in Thailand, outside of Bangkok, and had unbelievably low overhead and very talented developers. That was years ago, but it always struck me as a savvy model. Anyone else looking at Asia should consider Singapore as well. They have some amazing investment programs run by the government at any given time.

mekoka 15y ago

Looking at the world and deciding where to go. Having no one that tells you what to do and nothing that holds you back from not doing it. Wherever you go on the planet, there will be people seeing a human being in you. Welcoming you and making a son, a brother, a father, a lover, a friend out of you. There will also be a government to remind you you don't belong.

msutherl 15y ago
There will also be a government to protect you from being mugged, killed and discarded in the street.
- ataggart 15y ago
  I'm curious at to what statistical facts inform that opinion. Police certainly may show up after being a victim of a crime, but being protected from crimes seems a harder case to make without resorting to unfalsifiable claims (sort of like those put forth by defenders of patent law).
  - x3c 15y ago
    If there were no police and no government, you're saying the crime rate woud be same? No, I have no facts to support that the crime rate would increase. Just tons of post-apocalyptic movie experiences and intuition.

medius 15y ago

It's just incredibly sad when you see such people leave the country because of immigration issues. I have been reading their posts and can say this with confidence that Leo and Joel are just getting started with Buffer.

whoisterencelee 15y ago

Anyone hackers here residing in Macau?

Jonbuford 15y ago
I only know marketing agencies there, but haven't run into any groups of either hardware or software hackers. Would be interested to find out what is there as well.
- whoisterencelee 15y ago
  I agree, that's why I want to start a hacker group in Macau

nirvana 15y ago

We also recently left the USA because one of our party is a UK citizen. We spent 6 months in the UK as US citizens with no problem, but when we came to the USA, we had to leave after 3 months, or send the UK resident co-founder out of the country at least. This visa thing is kinda absurd. What is the visa situation like in Hong Kong? I've read elsewhere that getting a visa for China is very difficult (this might be an area where HH is different from CN). Are you able to get reasonably long visas so that you can stay there indefinitely, or will you have to relocate again in 6 months or a year? FWIW, others have recommended Singapore, and one nice thing about Singapore is that they have a pro-entrepreneur Visa process, though it seems a bit focused on business that will be hiring singaporeans, so the traditional tiny consumer internet startup might have trouble meeting their requirements. Singapore is an expensive place to live, housing wise (though I hear food is super cheap and super plentiful with a massive "Street food"/mall-food-court culture).... though I imagine HK real estate isn't cheap either. The approach we're taking is that we're going places where our core costs are low-- apartment for the founders plus food, etc, and trying to make our funds last longer that way, and then working with people remotely to expand our staff.

josscrowcroft 15y ago
In HK you can dive in/out pretty much indefinitely, as long as you don't (and I really mean DON'T) overstay, even by 1 minute. My US friends have been doing it for two years, I'm English and have been doing it for 15 months (but we brits get 6 months at a time) They'll screw you if you overstay. tl;dr: HK != China.
- saryant 15y ago
  I'm curious, what counts as leaving HK? A quick hop on the ferry to Macao or do you have to go further like Taipei or Hanoi?
  - josscrowcroft 15y ago
    Most people do the Macau run, yeah. Air Asia flights are dirt cheap to e.g. Bangkok.

krumjahn 15y ago

I'm part of the incubation program at Cyberport in Hong Kong. You can check it out here: http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/entrepreneurship_centre http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/ent.... I've been back for 5 months and I love it.

mark_l_watson 15y ago
I have a friend doing long term AI research in the HK area and he talks it up so positively that I have considered going there for 4 or 5 months to live and work on my own projects. Does the Cyberport rent inexpensive shared office space suitable for one person to have a nice work environment? I work out of a home office in Arizona, and have a great working environment but living for 4 or 5 months in a foreign country probably means a small apartment so I don't think that I would want to work at "home." BTW, my wife really likes Hong Kong (we were there 15 months ago) so this would be an easy sell for me to talk her into it.
- Jonbuford 15y ago
  We have a few cowork options, and expect some more spaces to open within the next 6 months. BootHK (http://boot.hk http://boot.hk) is my space I opened and is mostly hotdesk space for early startups. HK Commons is a little more for established companies that are still 2-4 people and growing. There are also more traditional serviced office type offerings, but that isn't quite as interactive with the general community.
- aaronsung 15y ago
  Beside Cyberport there is also a place called Science Park which also provide cheap places for start-up. From my second hand information the rent for a 1,000 sq. ft. office is about $1,100 US dollar (electricity inclusive) I am from HK and if you want to know more about HK you can contact me.

bluekite2000 15y ago

I m surprised no one mentions vibrant Vietnam with its endless tropical beaches, amazing food, fast internet at nearly all coffee shops and friendly people. The population is young, cost of living is still low and many big tech companies have shops here (Yahoo, Microsoft, Intel,etc) Plus it is a breeze getting a visa.

mekoka 15y ago
As someone looking for some alternate destinations to work as a developer, I'm genuinely curious about Vietnam. Where should I stay and what would be the downsides?

somecoolguy 15y ago

Kind of off topic, but I am thinking about traveling to China (mainland, not HK) over the summer and working on my own business while doing touristy stuff. My business is completely online and based in the US, so I am wondering if I should get a business visa or just a normal tourist visa. I won't be going to business meetings or anything like that in China, but should I get a business visa just to be safe?