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There's also an older(?) thread talking about the frustration and possible decline of asshole bosses. Whether it's necessary to be an ass or whether too many p

There's also an older(?) thread talking about the frustration and possible decline of asshole bosses. Whether it's necessary to be an ass or whether too many people think Jobs or Patton or whomever was successful because they were an ass rather than in spite of it. Jobs had taste, Patton was steeped in military theory and explicitly not an ass to his peers. You can get people to follow you, for a while, via coercion or threats. This is way harder if they can walk away. Better to get people wanting to participate in your adventure, making it their adventure as well.

kristiandupont 4y ago
I just binged "Succession", a tv-show about a media empire being run by a ruthless man who shies away from nothing to win. Highly recommendable. I don't think it's implausible that someone like that, if sufficiently smart, would be able to succeed and squander all competition. I would not personally work for someone like that and I am privileged enough to be able to make that choice, but I do think that plenty of people would if they think it will benefit them in the end. It's not clear to me that there is a trend away from this dynamic in society.
- vsskanth 4y ago
  It really depends on how capital intensive something is, who has access to capital, and how much mobility employees have. Since a competitive tech company depends on good software engineers, and since anyone can band together and raise VC money, you can't survive long if you're not a good boss. Access to capital is now restricted due to the recession but there's still a need for software talent so they have options. The only exception is people on H1B visas who have to hold on to the job until they find another (or get deported) and hence have to tolerate a bad boss. You see this happening in Twitter with all the recent resignations.
  - ido 4y ago
    since anyone can band together and raise VC money As someone who keeps wondering why so many of my friends (some of which I consider more skilled than me) don't start their own companies while I did (and tried multiple times in the past) I want to mention that not anyone can band together and raise VC money. Or maybe they can but not everyone would. Entrepreneurship is actually kinda rare, most people just want a safe salary and not worry about money or running a company.
    - vsskanth 4y ago
      I should've been clearer. It doesn't have to be the engineers themselves raising money. Might be an entrepreneur who raised capital and hired your best engineers away promising better working conditions.
- nonameiguess 4y ago
  Probably not, and this gets at the crux of the issue. It doesn't really matter the domain. You see the same thing in sports, politics, military, business. As long as an asshole leader is also a winner, followers will tolerate almost anything, because they also want to win. Winning is the chief attribute we admire and reward, not goodness. I have no idea what we can possibly do about this short of sci-fi level genetic or chemical manipulation of future humans. It seems we'd otherwise have to rewind and replay at least the last few million years of evolution without scarcity and zero-sum competition.
rufus_foreman 4y ago
When I worked in a factory the saying went, "He's not an asshole because he's the boss, he's the boss because he's an asshole". It's folk wisdom but I think it is directionally correct.

kristiandupont 4y ago

I just binged "Succession", a tv-show about a media empire being run by a ruthless man who shies away from nothing to win. Highly recommendable. I don't think it's implausible that someone like that, if sufficiently smart, would be able to succeed and squander all competition. I would not personally work for someone like that and I am privileged enough to be able to make that choice, but I do think that plenty of people would if they think it will benefit them in the end. It's not clear to me that there is a trend away from this dynamic in society.

vsskanth 4y ago
It really depends on how capital intensive something is, who has access to capital, and how much mobility employees have. Since a competitive tech company depends on good software engineers, and since anyone can band together and raise VC money, you can't survive long if you're not a good boss. Access to capital is now restricted due to the recession but there's still a need for software talent so they have options. The only exception is people on H1B visas who have to hold on to the job until they find another (or get deported) and hence have to tolerate a bad boss. You see this happening in Twitter with all the recent resignations.
- ido 4y ago
  since anyone can band together and raise VC money As someone who keeps wondering why so many of my friends (some of which I consider more skilled than me) don't start their own companies while I did (and tried multiple times in the past) I want to mention that not anyone can band together and raise VC money. Or maybe they can but not everyone would. Entrepreneurship is actually kinda rare, most people just want a safe salary and not worry about money or running a company.
  - vsskanth 4y ago
    I should've been clearer. It doesn't have to be the engineers themselves raising money. Might be an entrepreneur who raised capital and hired your best engineers away promising better working conditions.
nonameiguess 4y ago
Probably not, and this gets at the crux of the issue. It doesn't really matter the domain. You see the same thing in sports, politics, military, business. As long as an asshole leader is also a winner, followers will tolerate almost anything, because they also want to win. Winning is the chief attribute we admire and reward, not goodness. I have no idea what we can possibly do about this short of sci-fi level genetic or chemical manipulation of future humans. It seems we'd otherwise have to rewind and replay at least the last few million years of evolution without scarcity and zero-sum competition.

rufus_foreman 4y ago

When I worked in a factory the saying went, "He's not an asshole because he's the boss, he's the boss because he's an asshole". It's folk wisdom but I think it is directionally correct.