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The first step is acknowledging that “DeFi” really means “Deregulated Finance” right now.

chrisco255 4y ago
It's a form of peer to peer finance. And you engage in "deregulated" financial activity every day. It's a basic human right.
- beardyw 4y ago
  This is about human protections more than rights. Otherwise we have learned nothing in the last few weeks.
  - mypastself 4y ago
    What happened in the last few weeks regarding decentralized finance?
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      Turned out some decentralized projects like Serum are just the big boys in a mask grabbing all your money, or a counterparty that was losing all of their own client's money.
      - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
        "Turned out"? Serum is built on Solana, the VC founded "blockchain" that Andreessen Horowitz heavily invested in and promoted, among others like coincidentally Alameda Research. No one who's seriously into defi thinks any of these projects are properly decentralized, it's hardly a step above something like Flow. At least they allow users to withdraw funds to their own wallets - that is when the chain isn't down as regularly happens ;) However way you look at it, it's the mainstream falling for vaporware and scammers, including this very forum as well. Something has crypto written on it, there will be hype around it and then when it inevitably collapses people lament that cryptocurrency is dangerous. Ignoring the new tech aspect, it's essentially the same thing that's been happening forever in finance. I know plenty of people who unironically think money itself is a scam. Their evidence is central and private bank shenanigans, the way creation isn't public and isn't tightly restricted, etc. All these are not money problems but people and institution problems. When you give your cash to some random guy on the street because he offers you winnings in a shell game, it's not the banknote's fault when you lose it or the issuer's but that of the scammer and your own for falling for it. In the same way, I would advice against transferring digital currency to some random guy faking to be an autistic trader genius, no matter how many politicians and media outlets endorse him (because they got bribed). This should be a lesson for people regarding herd mentality and trust. And that's exactly what blockchains are for, because people simply seem completely incapable of learning this lesson. We need to have financial systems that are built on verification, not trust. The exact opposite of something like FTX and legacy finance. Apparently no one even bothered to properly look at their books and the auditing was done by a Metaverse-present auditing firm called 'Prager Metis'. You can't make this up: https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/11/11/meet-the-metaverse-night-clubloving-audit-firm-that-presided-over-ftxs-financials/ https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/11/11/meet-the-metave...
- hef19898 4y ago
  Too lazy to look it up, but I am quite sure "deregulated finance" is mentioned nowhere in the UN charter of human rights.
  - AbrahamParangi 4y ago
    The UN charter of human rights does not give us our rights. Some people consider the rights god-given, some consider that we have all negative rights until they’re taken away.
  - zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
    The UN doesn't matter
  - chrisco255 4y ago
    The UN is not the authority on human rights. It's just a weak, ineffective political body that represents no one in particular. Certainly not me nor you. From the U.S. constitution: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Since I am not a US citizen, the US constitution doesn't really matter to me. The UN, as the only global body we have, does matter so.
      - willmadden 4y ago
        There is a word for unelected groups that have power over you. The word is tyranny.
      - chrisco255 4y ago
        The UN has no power. It is not an elected Congress nor does it have sovereign authority of any kind. It has every country in it, even those that routinely abuse human rights. It is purely intended as a preventative body for war. It's not even great at that.
DennisP 4y ago
Eh, no. Defi should continue to mean the sort of systems where failures like FTX can't happen. Uniswap for example has no admin functions; the only person who can move your funds is you.
jeroenhd 4y ago
Decentralisation means more people get responsibilities and therefore are liable if something really bad happens. It doesn't mean regulations don't apply. With the way Tornado Cash went down, I disagree that DeFi is "deregulated". The stakes are as high as ever for the people working on these projects. The people getting scammed by DeFi companies just don't have as much money to burn on lawyers and influence to take action when their deals turn out too good to be true.
- woah 4y ago
  Tornado cash never went down. It continues to operate.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    It can't go down without Ethereum going down, in the same way several blockchains contain child porn that can never be removed without taking down the entire chain. Yet donations have been refused out of fear of being branded with the USA's sanctions for dealing with a sanctioned company.
willmadden 4y ago
No, it is a technology that omits third parties and centralized institutions from financial transactions. If FTX had been a DeFi platform, the fraud committed wouldn't have been possible. Granted, DeFi can't do everything FTX used to do, yet.

It's a form of peer to peer finance. And you engage in "deregulated" financial activity every day. It's a basic human right.

beardyw 4y ago
This is about human protections more than rights. Otherwise we have learned nothing in the last few weeks.
- mypastself 4y ago
  What happened in the last few weeks regarding decentralized finance?
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    Turned out some decentralized projects like Serum are just the big boys in a mask grabbing all your money, or a counterparty that was losing all of their own client's money.
    - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
      "Turned out"? Serum is built on Solana, the VC founded "blockchain" that Andreessen Horowitz heavily invested in and promoted, among others like coincidentally Alameda Research. No one who's seriously into defi thinks any of these projects are properly decentralized, it's hardly a step above something like Flow. At least they allow users to withdraw funds to their own wallets - that is when the chain isn't down as regularly happens ;) However way you look at it, it's the mainstream falling for vaporware and scammers, including this very forum as well. Something has crypto written on it, there will be hype around it and then when it inevitably collapses people lament that cryptocurrency is dangerous. Ignoring the new tech aspect, it's essentially the same thing that's been happening forever in finance. I know plenty of people who unironically think money itself is a scam. Their evidence is central and private bank shenanigans, the way creation isn't public and isn't tightly restricted, etc. All these are not money problems but people and institution problems. When you give your cash to some random guy on the street because he offers you winnings in a shell game, it's not the banknote's fault when you lose it or the issuer's but that of the scammer and your own for falling for it. In the same way, I would advice against transferring digital currency to some random guy faking to be an autistic trader genius, no matter how many politicians and media outlets endorse him (because they got bribed). This should be a lesson for people regarding herd mentality and trust. And that's exactly what blockchains are for, because people simply seem completely incapable of learning this lesson. We need to have financial systems that are built on verification, not trust. The exact opposite of something like FTX and legacy finance. Apparently no one even bothered to properly look at their books and the auditing was done by a Metaverse-present auditing firm called 'Prager Metis'. You can't make this up: https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/11/11/meet-the-metaverse-night-clubloving-audit-firm-that-presided-over-ftxs-financials/ https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/11/11/meet-the-metave...
hef19898 4y ago
Too lazy to look it up, but I am quite sure "deregulated finance" is mentioned nowhere in the UN charter of human rights.
- AbrahamParangi 4y ago
  The UN charter of human rights does not give us our rights. Some people consider the rights god-given, some consider that we have all negative rights until they’re taken away.
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
  The UN doesn't matter
- chrisco255 4y ago
  The UN is not the authority on human rights. It's just a weak, ineffective political body that represents no one in particular. Certainly not me nor you. From the U.S. constitution: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Since I am not a US citizen, the US constitution doesn't really matter to me. The UN, as the only global body we have, does matter so.
    - willmadden 4y ago
      There is a word for unelected groups that have power over you. The word is tyranny.
    - chrisco255 4y ago
      The UN has no power. It is not an elected Congress nor does it have sovereign authority of any kind. It has every country in it, even those that routinely abuse human rights. It is purely intended as a preventative body for war. It's not even great at that.

DennisP 4y ago

Eh, no. Defi should continue to mean the sort of systems where failures like FTX can't happen. Uniswap for example has no admin functions; the only person who can move your funds is you.

jeroenhd 4y ago

Decentralisation means more people get responsibilities and therefore are liable if something really bad happens. It doesn't mean regulations don't apply. With the way Tornado Cash went down, I disagree that DeFi is "deregulated". The stakes are as high as ever for the people working on these projects. The people getting scammed by DeFi companies just don't have as much money to burn on lawyers and influence to take action when their deals turn out too good to be true.

woah 4y ago
Tornado cash never went down. It continues to operate.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  It can't go down without Ethereum going down, in the same way several blockchains contain child porn that can never be removed without taking down the entire chain. Yet donations have been refused out of fear of being branded with the USA's sanctions for dealing with a sanctioned company.

willmadden 4y ago

No, it is a technology that omits third parties and centralized institutions from financial transactions. If FTX had been a DeFi platform, the fraud committed wouldn't have been possible. Granted, DeFi can't do everything FTX used to do, yet.