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Definitely on this. I enjoy just hanging out and having a beer, but also painting a room, building a porch, doing a little demolition, taking our kids camping t

Definitely on this. I enjoy just hanging out and having a beer, but also painting a room, building a porch, doing a little demolition, taking our kids camping together. Time doesn't have to be a zero sum game. (And it’s the same with a lot of stuff— you don’t have to stop parenting to cook or clean or garden, do that stuff with the kids!) Another aspect I think is how much you plan things in advance, and how willing the people in your circle are to do stuff last minute. One of my groups is some neighborhood dads and every week or so they're like "hey, tonight or tomorrow?" and then it's a hang for whoever can make it, with no expectations or hurt feelings because it wasn’t possible to find a weeks-away date that magically worked for everyone’s calendars only to have half of them cancel at the last minute anyway. You need people receptive to this for it to work, but it has that fluidity of college dorm socializing once it gets going.

jeff-davis 4y ago
"I enjoy just hanging out and having a beer, but also painting a room, building a porch, doing a little demolition" Perhaps that's the differece: specialization. More contractors and take-out meals mean less working with friends. Friends are good for unspecialized labor, but when you get into skilled labor it falls apart. The one plumber friend will get swamped with requests, and the quantum physicist may not find an opportunity to reciprocate.
- TimTheTinker 4y ago
  > Friends are good for unspecialized labor, but when you get into skilled labor it falls apart. I wonder if this alone holds a lot of explanatory power for why people in many increasingly developed countries tend to have increasingly fewer close friends in their personal lives. Labor gets increasingly skilled and specialized (and requiring facilities, supplies, and support staff owned by large companies) leaving fewer opportunities to directly help people who live next door. And skilled/specialized labor pays more, so people have the money to just hire out any help they need. Thus fewer friendships form around a natural need for help from neighbors and the ability to meet such needs -- because both have decreased significantly. And along with less needing/helping, human connection and trust also suffer significantly. In the past, local community groups, especially churches and social clubs, helped significantly with fostering human connection; but those also are suffering significantly.
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  But painting a room or mudding drywall or hacking down a wall? These are not really that specialized, are they? Or like, they're skills that can taught at the basic level with a few minutes of instruction and oversight.
  - dgfitz 4y ago
    I agree. Basic home ownership skills like plumbing, wiring, and painting aren’t “specialized. I’ve bonded with friends and neighbors over such things.
    - jlokier 4y ago
      Ah, home ownership. For so many people these days, all of those "work on the house" bonding activities they saw their parents doing are unavailable because they don't own a home and don't expect to. I grew up with seemingly all my extended family working on their houses one way or another. I saw a lot of it. Plumbing, electrics, knocking down and building new walls, repairing floors, plastering, painting, wallpapering, carpeting, fitting windows, pouring concrete, mixing cement, gardening and remodelling the garden, erecting sheds, countless other things and that's just some basics that popped into my head. Many of those involved a team of extended family and friends working together on a project. As an adult I've rarely had the opportunity to do anything like that, and certainly never anywhere I lived myself, due to renting and most people I knew renting for most of it. Even putting up a small shelf or painting a wall have been against the rules at most places. I don't own a drill because there's nothing at home to use it on. So I have neither the skills nor a friendship group that tends to develop with that sort of thing It's not from lack of interest though. I miss it, having seen so much as a child that I've been unable to even dabble with as an adult. It's one reason I rent a small office for work. Unlike homes, some commercial leases expect you to do things like put up wall furniture, paint as you likr, replace carpets and doors and so on. There are limits to that but not as limiting as homes in my experience.
      - dgfitz 4y ago
        I really do sympathize with people who can’t own a home, it’s terrible. My mortgage is 1300/month right between Baltimore and DC so it’s not like I’m out in the cut or anything. I’ve never experienced the “homes are too expensive to buy” situation, but maybe I’m just incredibly fortunate.

jeff-davis 4y ago

"I enjoy just hanging out and having a beer, but also painting a room, building a porch, doing a little demolition" Perhaps that's the differece: specialization. More contractors and take-out meals mean less working with friends. Friends are good for unspecialized labor, but when you get into skilled labor it falls apart. The one plumber friend will get swamped with requests, and the quantum physicist may not find an opportunity to reciprocate.

TimTheTinker 4y ago
> Friends are good for unspecialized labor, but when you get into skilled labor it falls apart. I wonder if this alone holds a lot of explanatory power for why people in many increasingly developed countries tend to have increasingly fewer close friends in their personal lives. Labor gets increasingly skilled and specialized (and requiring facilities, supplies, and support staff owned by large companies) leaving fewer opportunities to directly help people who live next door. And skilled/specialized labor pays more, so people have the money to just hire out any help they need. Thus fewer friendships form around a natural need for help from neighbors and the ability to meet such needs -- because both have decreased significantly. And along with less needing/helping, human connection and trust also suffer significantly. In the past, local community groups, especially churches and social clubs, helped significantly with fostering human connection; but those also are suffering significantly.
mikepurvis 4y ago
But painting a room or mudding drywall or hacking down a wall? These are not really that specialized, are they? Or like, they're skills that can taught at the basic level with a few minutes of instruction and oversight.
- dgfitz 4y ago
  I agree. Basic home ownership skills like plumbing, wiring, and painting aren’t “specialized. I’ve bonded with friends and neighbors over such things.
  - jlokier 4y ago
    Ah, home ownership. For so many people these days, all of those "work on the house" bonding activities they saw their parents doing are unavailable because they don't own a home and don't expect to. I grew up with seemingly all my extended family working on their houses one way or another. I saw a lot of it. Plumbing, electrics, knocking down and building new walls, repairing floors, plastering, painting, wallpapering, carpeting, fitting windows, pouring concrete, mixing cement, gardening and remodelling the garden, erecting sheds, countless other things and that's just some basics that popped into my head. Many of those involved a team of extended family and friends working together on a project. As an adult I've rarely had the opportunity to do anything like that, and certainly never anywhere I lived myself, due to renting and most people I knew renting for most of it. Even putting up a small shelf or painting a wall have been against the rules at most places. I don't own a drill because there's nothing at home to use it on. So I have neither the skills nor a friendship group that tends to develop with that sort of thing It's not from lack of interest though. I miss it, having seen so much as a child that I've been unable to even dabble with as an adult. It's one reason I rent a small office for work. Unlike homes, some commercial leases expect you to do things like put up wall furniture, paint as you likr, replace carpets and doors and so on. There are limits to that but not as limiting as homes in my experience.
    - dgfitz 4y ago
      I really do sympathize with people who can’t own a home, it’s terrible. My mortgage is 1300/month right between Baltimore and DC so it’s not like I’m out in the cut or anything. I’ve never experienced the “homes are too expensive to buy” situation, but maybe I’m just incredibly fortunate.