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Is this a critique of dev-tooling companies in general, or just the kotlin-jetbrains connection? The quote you mention doesn't seem all that different from oth

Is this a critique of dev-tooling companies in general, or just the kotlin-jetbrains connection? The quote you mention doesn't seem all that different from other companies building paid-for dev-tools that help their userbase in ways not directly related to their project. This seems similar to Vercel putting out articles about how they make next.js better, when it's obvious that the integration to their system is how they make money.

Rauchg 4y ago
Both things can be true. We continuously improve Next.js _and_ Vercel, and we invest in other frameworks as well (like Svelte[Kit]). Happy to hear any feedback you have about how we can make Next.js even better!
- banashark 4y ago
  I agree. I was intending to imply that it isn't a zero-sum game and that both parties can benefit. Great work with Next!
pjmlp 4y ago
The Kotlin JetBrains connection and how they actively take options to kill using Kotlin elsewhere. Vercel hasn't created an IDE for NextJS, and you are free to run NextJS in Cloudflare. They also don't actively collaborate with an OS vendor to replace an existing language, stagnated on purpose, to help sell Kotlin.
- banashark 4y ago
  I have no skin in the Kotlin game, but am just curious because every now and then I see similar comments about companies only doing things to help their revenue and how that's bad. I am curious about the "actively take options" part. Other than not allocating resources towards language support in other editors (which is the one thing I remember hearing before), what other actions have they taken? I would say that Vercel has specific enhancing functionality to make using NextJS "better" than self-hosting it. That seems somewhat similar to me. Checking on kotlin, it has a foundation, with Google being one of the backers, which seems like a fairly decent way to advertise that it's not completely locked-in. Also when you say "actively collaborate with an OS vendor to replace an existing language, stagnated on purpose, to help sell Kotlin", are you implying that they are somehow responsible for holding-back and stagnating java? That seems like quite the claim. Java seems to be getting more modern quite rapidly with it's new release cadence.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Try to use Java 19 on Android. What a wonder that Google, number one reason Kotlin matters at all, seats alongside JetBrains on the Kotlin foundation.

Rauchg 4y ago

Both things can be true. We continuously improve Next.js _and_ Vercel, and we invest in other frameworks as well (like Svelte[Kit]). Happy to hear any feedback you have about how we can make Next.js even better!

banashark 4y ago
I agree. I was intending to imply that it isn't a zero-sum game and that both parties can benefit. Great work with Next!

pjmlp 4y ago

The Kotlin JetBrains connection and how they actively take options to kill using Kotlin elsewhere. Vercel hasn't created an IDE for NextJS, and you are free to run NextJS in Cloudflare. They also don't actively collaborate with an OS vendor to replace an existing language, stagnated on purpose, to help sell Kotlin.

banashark 4y ago
I have no skin in the Kotlin game, but am just curious because every now and then I see similar comments about companies only doing things to help their revenue and how that's bad. I am curious about the "actively take options" part. Other than not allocating resources towards language support in other editors (which is the one thing I remember hearing before), what other actions have they taken? I would say that Vercel has specific enhancing functionality to make using NextJS "better" than self-hosting it. That seems somewhat similar to me. Checking on kotlin, it has a foundation, with Google being one of the backers, which seems like a fairly decent way to advertise that it's not completely locked-in. Also when you say "actively collaborate with an OS vendor to replace an existing language, stagnated on purpose, to help sell Kotlin", are you implying that they are somehow responsible for holding-back and stagnating java? That seems like quite the claim. Java seems to be getting more modern quite rapidly with it's new release cadence.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Try to use Java 19 on Android. What a wonder that Google, number one reason Kotlin matters at all, seats alongside JetBrains on the Kotlin foundation.