5 ms·

How was he not doing EA? He was lying AND donating to causes. I'm very pro-EA but that's a weird claim.

by Tenoke 4y ago

balozi 4y ago
Doesn't altruism literary mean selflessness-ism? Can you be selfless with stolen property?
- kingTug 4y ago
  Yeah, that was the theme of Robinhood. Of course sbf is no robinhood.
  - robswc 4y ago
    Agreed. I know several people that think capital gains are "unethical" and would have no qualms about stealing that. They would think they're doing good.
wmf 4y ago
Prominent EAers like McAskill have said (before this scandal) that EA is only valid if the money is earned honestly. They say that they never intended EA to be "steal to give".
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  Those concepts seem obviously separate to me.
- ohashi 4y ago
  Sounds nice in theory, but when the outcome is people behaving like this and using it as a justification it rings hollow. The idea seems centered around making the most money possible as a core tenet. That alone is a pretty corrupting thing to build your whole ideology on judging from how we've seen humanity behave for thousands of years.
  - chrchang523 4y ago
    Yeah. I see a fork in the road here: 1. They can band together to save the EA brand by demonstrating an unusually high commitment to accountability. The simplest way I see to do this is to contribute 2x what they received from FTX (as a group, it's impractical for them to do this on the individual level) to making the financial fraud victims whole. 2. They could "declare bankruptcy", switching to less ambitious but epistemically safer approaches to philanthropy. I wouldn't blame them for doing this, (1) is a big ask.
- robocat 4y ago
  “Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths in subculture evolution” — https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths SBF definitely seems like a sociopath in this model. BTW: the best criticism I have read on Effective Altruism is: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/criticism-of-criticism-of-criticism https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/criticism-of-criticism...
- karpierz 4y ago
  What does it mean to earn money honestly? If I'm an investment banker, is that honest? Car salesman? International arms dealer? Like it or not, the execution of EA is to make as much as possible without regard for the consequences of how you make it. The whole premise is that the ends justify the means. What they really mean by "honestly" is in a manner that doesn't reflect poorly on EA, which is tangential to whether or not the money is earned morally.
hackerlight 4y ago
Because EA is about overall impact. (At least that's one strand of thought in EA, for those that lean more towards utilitarianism.) He hurt so many people and caused so much distrust that his overall impact is negative. It is therefore against the principles of EA. That's not the No True Scotsman fallacy.
- gilleain 4y ago
  That's convenient. So when EA has a positive impact, it's EA. When it has a negative impact it's definitely NOT EA. Do I have that right?
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    Yeah, I guess. EA by definition is doing good.
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  Or he was the lynchpin in killing crypto and thus brought a great good to the world in the end (at big expense to those caught in it). I don’t believe that, but seems equally valid
KptMarchewa 4y ago
Definition of altruism requires selflessness. He was anything but.
tlogan 4y ago
Effective altruism is about taking a desire to do good. So I’m not sure how criminals can be doing EA. Is el Mencho doing EA? He gave some toys and even suggested that they will stop killing priests.

How was he not doing EA? He was lying AND donating to causes. I'm very pro-EA but that's a weird claim.

by Tenoke 4y ago

How was he not doing EA? He was lying AND donating to causes. I'm very pro-EA but that's a weird claim.

balozi 4y ago

Doesn't altruism literary mean selflessness-ism? Can you be selfless with stolen property?

kingTug 4y ago
Yeah, that was the theme of Robinhood. Of course sbf is no robinhood.
- robswc 4y ago
  Agreed. I know several people that think capital gains are "unethical" and would have no qualms about stealing that. They would think they're doing good.

wmf 4y ago

Prominent EAers like McAskill have said (before this scandal) that EA is only valid if the money is earned honestly. They say that they never intended EA to be "steal to give".

spywaregorilla 4y ago
Those concepts seem obviously separate to me.
ohashi 4y ago
Sounds nice in theory, but when the outcome is people behaving like this and using it as a justification it rings hollow. The idea seems centered around making the most money possible as a core tenet. That alone is a pretty corrupting thing to build your whole ideology on judging from how we've seen humanity behave for thousands of years.
- chrchang523 4y ago
  Yeah. I see a fork in the road here: 1. They can band together to save the EA brand by demonstrating an unusually high commitment to accountability. The simplest way I see to do this is to contribute 2x what they received from FTX (as a group, it's impractical for them to do this on the individual level) to making the financial fraud victims whole. 2. They could "declare bankruptcy", switching to less ambitious but epistemically safer approaches to philanthropy. I wouldn't blame them for doing this, (1) is a big ask.
robocat 4y ago
“Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths in subculture evolution” — https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths SBF definitely seems like a sociopath in this model. BTW: the best criticism I have read on Effective Altruism is: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/criticism-of-criticism-of-criticism https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/criticism-of-criticism...
karpierz 4y ago
What does it mean to earn money honestly? If I'm an investment banker, is that honest? Car salesman? International arms dealer? Like it or not, the execution of EA is to make as much as possible without regard for the consequences of how you make it. The whole premise is that the ends justify the means. What they really mean by "honestly" is in a manner that doesn't reflect poorly on EA, which is tangential to whether or not the money is earned morally.

hackerlight 4y ago

Because EA is about overall impact. (At least that's one strand of thought in EA, for those that lean more towards utilitarianism.) He hurt so many people and caused so much distrust that his overall impact is negative. It is therefore against the principles of EA. That's not the No True Scotsman fallacy.

gilleain 4y ago
That's convenient. So when EA has a positive impact, it's EA. When it has a negative impact it's definitely NOT EA. Do I have that right?
- hackerlight 4y ago
  Yeah, I guess. EA by definition is doing good.
adam_arthur 4y ago
Or he was the lynchpin in killing crypto and thus brought a great good to the world in the end (at big expense to those caught in it). I don’t believe that, but seems equally valid

KptMarchewa 4y ago

Definition of altruism requires selflessness. He was anything but.

tlogan 4y ago

Effective altruism is about taking a desire to do good. So I’m not sure how criminals can be doing EA. Is el Mencho doing EA? He gave some toys and even suggested that they will stop killing priests.