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> Self defense is an easy first place to look. There are some extremely relevant and notable moral differences between someone defending their own life from a

> Self defense is an easy first place to look. There are some extremely relevant and notable moral differences between someone defending their own life from a threat, and raising a lamb in a cage so small that it cannot turn around, forcing it to drink it's own urine in a desperate attempt to recycle the little iron it has in it's system (gotta keep the meat anemic and tender!), before stunning it with a bolt gun and slitting it's throat. All because you enjoy the taste. It is not a case of having different values. It is a case of being socialized from a young age to disregard the wellbeing of certain animals. The values are fundamentally the same.

ch4s3 4y ago
You’re arguing against a stew man. I responded to a prompt about cases where one might make an argument about not causing suffering up until the point of taking lethal action with respect to people. In fact I was making a case for considering animal welfare as a meat eater.
- sweetheart 4y ago
  How exactly did I mis characterize your argument? I’ve reread it about 10 times and cannot understand how you’re advocating for animal welfare. You say that people can easily value animals lives less than their tastebuds, but still want to minimize suffering (which is wrong, because minimizing suffering would mean not killing anyone). Then you make the case that self defense could be a similar example of taking well-being into consideration while still causing fatal harm. I make the point that self defense isn’t remotely like the act of killing animals for food, and you said I’m building a strawman. What exactly is being lost in translation?
fargle 4y ago
who "raises a lamb in a cage so small that it cannot turn around, forcing it to drink it's own urine?" I can find no legitimate evidence that this is even a thing. It seems a mixture of peta propaganda about various other animals but not lambs. I can't find a single example of "forced to drink it's own urine ... [for iron]". raising an animal for meat isn't pretty but it's never in fact what this comment alleges.
- sweetheart 4y ago
  https://youtu.be/zmu0-1qj-vo https://youtu.be/zmu0-1qj-vo You’re right. I meant to type veal. Here you go!
  - fargle 4y ago
    but again, I can find nowhere where animals are "forced to drink it's own urine in a desperate attempt to recycle the little iron it has in it's system" so lambs and calves are not the same, and drinking urine is not a thing. it's possible you might be getting overly upset about stuff you don't completely understand. for a more balanced and professional take on veal and eating meat: https://youtu.be/bMGIAZDqYYs https://youtu.be/bMGIAZDqYYs
    - sweetheart 4y ago
      Whether or not you can find information on how anemic animals behave when confined to cages doesn’t change the fact that this suffering does occur. The obligation is not on me to painstakingly hold your hand through understanding how fucked up the treatment of calves raised for food is. I understand this topic perfectly well, which is exactly why I don’t support the insanity that is animal agriculture.
      - fargle 4y ago
        > i understand this topic perfectly well clearly you do not. you watch a few videos of "cute" animals being mistreated by the worst and poorest industrial farms and think you know what goes on? you don't even know a lamb from a calf or veal from a chop. > I don’t support the insanity that is animal agriculture there is a wide range between ethical and despicable. the average is much closer to ethical end of that range - because it is actually more profitable to care for your crop, before eating it. how many animals (or people) die indirectly due to farming vegetables? ever think of that? do you support the insanity of any kind of farming? you're human. that makes you, inescapably, culpable for the destruction of nature, same as pretty much every other human. to try to paint yourself as better because you pretend you don't destroy your favorite kinds of nature makes you a hypocrite. and very poorly informed.

ch4s3 4y ago

You’re arguing against a stew man. I responded to a prompt about cases where one might make an argument about not causing suffering up until the point of taking lethal action with respect to people. In fact I was making a case for considering animal welfare as a meat eater.

sweetheart 4y ago
How exactly did I mis characterize your argument? I’ve reread it about 10 times and cannot understand how you’re advocating for animal welfare. You say that people can easily value animals lives less than their tastebuds, but still want to minimize suffering (which is wrong, because minimizing suffering would mean not killing anyone). Then you make the case that self defense could be a similar example of taking well-being into consideration while still causing fatal harm. I make the point that self defense isn’t remotely like the act of killing animals for food, and you said I’m building a strawman. What exactly is being lost in translation?

fargle 4y ago

who "raises a lamb in a cage so small that it cannot turn around, forcing it to drink it's own urine?" I can find no legitimate evidence that this is even a thing. It seems a mixture of peta propaganda about various other animals but not lambs. I can't find a single example of "forced to drink it's own urine ... [for iron]". raising an animal for meat isn't pretty but it's never in fact what this comment alleges.

sweetheart 4y ago
https://youtu.be/zmu0-1qj-vo https://youtu.be/zmu0-1qj-vo You’re right. I meant to type veal. Here you go!
- fargle 4y ago
  but again, I can find nowhere where animals are "forced to drink it's own urine in a desperate attempt to recycle the little iron it has in it's system" so lambs and calves are not the same, and drinking urine is not a thing. it's possible you might be getting overly upset about stuff you don't completely understand. for a more balanced and professional take on veal and eating meat: https://youtu.be/bMGIAZDqYYs https://youtu.be/bMGIAZDqYYs
  - sweetheart 4y ago
    Whether or not you can find information on how anemic animals behave when confined to cages doesn’t change the fact that this suffering does occur. The obligation is not on me to painstakingly hold your hand through understanding how fucked up the treatment of calves raised for food is. I understand this topic perfectly well, which is exactly why I don’t support the insanity that is animal agriculture.
    - fargle 4y ago
      > i understand this topic perfectly well clearly you do not. you watch a few videos of "cute" animals being mistreated by the worst and poorest industrial farms and think you know what goes on? you don't even know a lamb from a calf or veal from a chop. > I don’t support the insanity that is animal agriculture there is a wide range between ethical and despicable. the average is much closer to ethical end of that range - because it is actually more profitable to care for your crop, before eating it. how many animals (or people) die indirectly due to farming vegetables? ever think of that? do you support the insanity of any kind of farming? you're human. that makes you, inescapably, culpable for the destruction of nature, same as pretty much every other human. to try to paint yourself as better because you pretend you don't destroy your favorite kinds of nature makes you a hypocrite. and very poorly informed.