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He did specify. He asked for most salient. Salient means "most noticeable or important." He hasn't played any mind games. He's asked for exactly what he wants.

by Teandw 4y ago

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hamburglar 4y ago
That is completely a mind game. Salient according to what criteria? Is he going to be happy to see wonderful high level distributed designs? Great coding practices at the micro level? Unit tests? Performance-oriented code? Ops greatness? CRUD boilerplate that any junior IC could jump into without much understanding (seems like this might be a stealth winner if he’s gearing up to build a skeleton crew of low-seniority devs that don’t have a lot of career options). Is feature work sexy to him or does he want to see work that is oriented around KTLO cost minimization? Improvements on usability (decreases support costs)? Reliability? Scalability? Security mindset? (obviously kidding about that last one) There are so many things that are “salient” depending on his priorities and attitudes that this is a fool’s errand.
- Jensson 4y ago
  > That is completely a mind game. Salient according to what criteria? Is what you do worth your salary? That is a pretty simple criteria, if you deliver significant value in basically any way that should be enough. Why do you think this is would be so hard? We had to write down reasoning like this to motivate our job at Google 1-2 times a year, it isn't hard to do.
  - hamburglar 4y ago
    Ok now do it in 10 code screenshots. My complaint isn't in the general concept of justifying your value. My complaint is in the request to have every coder in the company boil this down to such a simplistic representation of it on short notice in an environment where every indication is that it's going to be considered for a laughably small amount of time and then you might be fired on the spot if you didn't focus on the right axes.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Why does everyone assume that people won't have a chance to explain the value of their code in these interviews? How much time do you think you would need to put together a list of your 10 biggest contributions and some screen caps to illustrate them?
      - hamburglar 4y ago
        > Why does everyone assume that people won't have a chance to explain ... I think the fact that this is happening to every coder at twitter in a few hours' span, coupled with the fact that thus far, the firings have been capricious, hasty, and based on apparently very little data. Nothing about these exercises seems to be "measured" in the "carefully considered" sense. If you're thinking of these in contrast to standard performance evals that we all expect to have to do, you should also actually compare the processes in a meaningful way. Perf evals: you get weeks to work on them, you get to write a long-form essay making your case, you rarely ever get fired on the spot for not doing well, you get all manner of coaching and documentation about how to do well on them (including very specific tips on criteria for success). Compare and contrast with "bring me 10 screenshots of your code by 2pm today" along with the recent atmosphere of "anyone who doesn't meet the surprise criteria we just sprung on you is fired" and you wonder why people think this is absurd? He can run his company how he wants, but this is way out of line with what I (and obviously many others) have come to expect. Don't understand the outrage? Well, this is the explanation. We've never had to put up with this shit before, and we don't feel like starting now. 1200 people quit yesterday. We still don't know how many were unwilling to jump through this latest dumb hoop. We shall see.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        Of course nobody is excited to explain what value they provide on short notice to keep their job. Nobody likes getting fired either. I agree that these exercises are neither measured, careful, or well coached. It is a blunt and imperfect way to see who codes at all, who can articulate their job, who can handle uncertainty and pressure, and also who will follow orders. Taking a screenshot and explaining your code is not some impossible task. People just don't like the stakes. My point is that it seems like people are overly focusing and critical of the request itself, when when request is a practical way to meet the goal. it just happens that the goal is crazy, unmeasured, rash. I agree it is out of line from what people want and expect. I'm not sure there is any way to cut >75% of staff and gut a company culture in weeks that would fit the expectations and desires of employees. The situation is unheard of.

He did specify. He asked for most salient. Salient means "most noticeable or important." He hasn't played any mind games. He's asked for exactly what he wants.

by Teandw 4y ago

He did specify. He asked for most salient. Salient means "most noticeable or important." He hasn't played any mind games. He's asked for exactly what he wants.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hamburglar 4y ago

That is completely a mind game. Salient according to what criteria? Is he going to be happy to see wonderful high level distributed designs? Great coding practices at the micro level? Unit tests? Performance-oriented code? Ops greatness? CRUD boilerplate that any junior IC could jump into without much understanding (seems like this might be a stealth winner if he’s gearing up to build a skeleton crew of low-seniority devs that don’t have a lot of career options). Is feature work sexy to him or does he want to see work that is oriented around KTLO cost minimization? Improvements on usability (decreases support costs)? Reliability? Scalability? Security mindset? (obviously kidding about that last one) There are so many things that are “salient” depending on his priorities and attitudes that this is a fool’s errand.

Jensson 4y ago
> That is completely a mind game. Salient according to what criteria? Is what you do worth your salary? That is a pretty simple criteria, if you deliver significant value in basically any way that should be enough. Why do you think this is would be so hard? We had to write down reasoning like this to motivate our job at Google 1-2 times a year, it isn't hard to do.
- hamburglar 4y ago
  Ok now do it in 10 code screenshots. My complaint isn't in the general concept of justifying your value. My complaint is in the request to have every coder in the company boil this down to such a simplistic representation of it on short notice in an environment where every indication is that it's going to be considered for a laughably small amount of time and then you might be fired on the spot if you didn't focus on the right axes.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Why does everyone assume that people won't have a chance to explain the value of their code in these interviews? How much time do you think you would need to put together a list of your 10 biggest contributions and some screen caps to illustrate them?
    - hamburglar 4y ago
      > Why does everyone assume that people won't have a chance to explain ... I think the fact that this is happening to every coder at twitter in a few hours' span, coupled with the fact that thus far, the firings have been capricious, hasty, and based on apparently very little data. Nothing about these exercises seems to be "measured" in the "carefully considered" sense. If you're thinking of these in contrast to standard performance evals that we all expect to have to do, you should also actually compare the processes in a meaningful way. Perf evals: you get weeks to work on them, you get to write a long-form essay making your case, you rarely ever get fired on the spot for not doing well, you get all manner of coaching and documentation about how to do well on them (including very specific tips on criteria for success). Compare and contrast with "bring me 10 screenshots of your code by 2pm today" along with the recent atmosphere of "anyone who doesn't meet the surprise criteria we just sprung on you is fired" and you wonder why people think this is absurd? He can run his company how he wants, but this is way out of line with what I (and obviously many others) have come to expect. Don't understand the outrage? Well, this is the explanation. We've never had to put up with this shit before, and we don't feel like starting now. 1200 people quit yesterday. We still don't know how many were unwilling to jump through this latest dumb hoop. We shall see.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        Of course nobody is excited to explain what value they provide on short notice to keep their job. Nobody likes getting fired either. I agree that these exercises are neither measured, careful, or well coached. It is a blunt and imperfect way to see who codes at all, who can articulate their job, who can handle uncertainty and pressure, and also who will follow orders. Taking a screenshot and explaining your code is not some impossible task. People just don't like the stakes. My point is that it seems like people are overly focusing and critical of the request itself, when when request is a practical way to meet the goal. it just happens that the goal is crazy, unmeasured, rash. I agree it is out of line from what people want and expect. I'm not sure there is any way to cut >75% of staff and gut a company culture in weeks that would fit the expectations and desires of employees. The situation is unheard of.