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In an org with thousands of software engineers, shouldn’t most of them be writing code? Feels like everyone wants to be the exception, and just assumes “someon

In an org with thousands of software engineers, shouldn’t most of them be writing code? Feels like everyone wants to be the exception, and just assumes “someone else” should do actual hands-on work

dboreham 4y ago
> shouldn’t most of them be writing code In an org of that size, there's much work just in stopping other people writing really bad code.
- khazhoux 4y ago
  I definitely agree with this. But if an org is full of people doing nothing but this, you got a real problem on your hands.
halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
Every organization is different but no, I don't think most of them should be writing code. I wouldn't put any kind of quantifier on it. Software development is not just "writing code". Shipping code from ideation to production is more complicated than layman want to make it out to be, especially at these scales. This dystopian "nobody works" fantasy that some people wish for is simply that, a fantasy. I'm willing to bet most, if not all Twitter developers were above average across the industry and were producing work of value.
qwytw 4y ago
It's the other way around, The smaller the org the more lines per code you would expected per engineer. Scaling codebases is hard. > Feels like everyone wants to be the exception Right. You can easily write 10x the number of lines than an average engineer and create negative value for the product.
Gene_Parmesan 4y ago
No, and this is a core misunderstanding of the profession. The job of software engineers is to design and implement solutions to business problems with technology. The job of a software engineer is not merely "write code." Writing code will almost certainly be the smallest percentage of a skilled engineer's time. They need to be spending their time thinking and designing. We're talking about solving extreme scaling problems at extreme scales here, not churning out crud apps at a local freelance studio.
- ferrumfist 4y ago
  Junior/Mid Perspective: "I was hired to write code, sometimes I solve business problems" Senior/Staff's Perspective: "I was hired to solve business problems, sometimes I write code"
  - khazhoux 4y ago
    Hacker News Perspective: “I’m a software developer — how dare you ask to see my code! How dare you even imply that developers should be writing code! The best software organizations are the ones where barely a few people (out of thousanda of developers) actually write any code at all.” ;-)
    - ferrumfist 4y ago
      You're completely right, maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code. Maybe every complex problem humanity faces today has an equally easy solution. Maybe nuance and being methodical is for chumps.
      - khazhoux 4y ago
        > maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code. I've never suggested someone should be fired if they can't produce code snippets. But it's fair to expect people who don't actively code (when they're not managers or have a non-coding title) to have a reason they're not coding. And there are many perfectly great reasons, especially for very senior engineers. But if someone isn't coding and they're not actually doing anything else of particular value... well, they're not valuable engineers. Code is not the single-and-only decider of an engineer's contributions, but I reject the notion that it can't be a starting filter to evaluate someone's contributions, and the assessment to proceed from there.
- khazhoux 4y ago
  I am not misunderstanding the profession. At a small or a large SW company, engineers should —by and large, with some exceptions— be writing code. I don’t care (and never mentioned) how much time the writing of code takes… whether people spend one hour a day typing or 8. But while engineers obviously have to spend time thinking and designing, it’s the code that does the actual work and embodies the value of the engineer’s plans. I simply fail to see how a software org could exist where only a small minority of engineers are coding. Makes no sense to me, sorry.
deleted 4y ago
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dboreham 4y ago

> shouldn’t most of them be writing code In an org of that size, there's much work just in stopping other people writing really bad code.

khazhoux 4y ago
I definitely agree with this. But if an org is full of people doing nothing but this, you got a real problem on your hands.

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago

Every organization is different but no, I don't think most of them should be writing code. I wouldn't put any kind of quantifier on it. Software development is not just "writing code". Shipping code from ideation to production is more complicated than layman want to make it out to be, especially at these scales. This dystopian "nobody works" fantasy that some people wish for is simply that, a fantasy. I'm willing to bet most, if not all Twitter developers were above average across the industry and were producing work of value.

qwytw 4y ago

It's the other way around, The smaller the org the more lines per code you would expected per engineer. Scaling codebases is hard. > Feels like everyone wants to be the exception Right. You can easily write 10x the number of lines than an average engineer and create negative value for the product.

Gene_Parmesan 4y ago

No, and this is a core misunderstanding of the profession. The job of software engineers is to design and implement solutions to business problems with technology. The job of a software engineer is not merely "write code." Writing code will almost certainly be the smallest percentage of a skilled engineer's time. They need to be spending their time thinking and designing. We're talking about solving extreme scaling problems at extreme scales here, not churning out crud apps at a local freelance studio.

ferrumfist 4y ago
Junior/Mid Perspective: "I was hired to write code, sometimes I solve business problems" Senior/Staff's Perspective: "I was hired to solve business problems, sometimes I write code"
- khazhoux 4y ago
  Hacker News Perspective: “I’m a software developer — how dare you ask to see my code! How dare you even imply that developers should be writing code! The best software organizations are the ones where barely a few people (out of thousanda of developers) actually write any code at all.” ;-)
  - ferrumfist 4y ago
    You're completely right, maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code. Maybe every complex problem humanity faces today has an equally easy solution. Maybe nuance and being methodical is for chumps.
    - khazhoux 4y ago
      > maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code. I've never suggested someone should be fired if they can't produce code snippets. But it's fair to expect people who don't actively code (when they're not managers or have a non-coding title) to have a reason they're not coding. And there are many perfectly great reasons, especially for very senior engineers. But if someone isn't coding and they're not actually doing anything else of particular value... well, they're not valuable engineers. Code is not the single-and-only decider of an engineer's contributions, but I reject the notion that it can't be a starting filter to evaluate someone's contributions, and the assessment to proceed from there.
khazhoux 4y ago
I am not misunderstanding the profession. At a small or a large SW company, engineers should —by and large, with some exceptions— be writing code. I don’t care (and never mentioned) how much time the writing of code takes… whether people spend one hour a day typing or 8. But while engineers obviously have to spend time thinking and designing, it’s the code that does the actual work and embodies the value of the engineer’s plans. I simply fail to see how a software org could exist where only a small minority of engineers are coding. Makes no sense to me, sorry.

deleted 4y ago

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