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A lot of Seniors/Staff don't write "code". They're architecting/planning/guiding. If I'm a Senior Staff DevOps engineer who maintains our entire Kube infra, am

A lot of Seniors/Staff don't write "code". They're architecting/planning/guiding. If I'm a Senior Staff DevOps engineer who maintains our entire Kube infra, am I gonna show Elon some sweet YAML configs? "Oh here's my Go templating for our org wide Helm charts that isn't really novel but is really important?"

khazhoux 4y ago
In an org with thousands of software engineers, shouldn’t most of them be writing code? Feels like everyone wants to be the exception, and just assumes “someone else” should do actual hands-on work
- dboreham 4y ago
  > shouldn’t most of them be writing code In an org of that size, there's much work just in stopping other people writing really bad code.
  - khazhoux 4y ago
    I definitely agree with this. But if an org is full of people doing nothing but this, you got a real problem on your hands.
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  Every organization is different but no, I don't think most of them should be writing code. I wouldn't put any kind of quantifier on it. Software development is not just "writing code". Shipping code from ideation to production is more complicated than layman want to make it out to be, especially at these scales. This dystopian "nobody works" fantasy that some people wish for is simply that, a fantasy. I'm willing to bet most, if not all Twitter developers were above average across the industry and were producing work of value.
- qwytw 4y ago
  It's the other way around, The smaller the org the more lines per code you would expected per engineer. Scaling codebases is hard. > Feels like everyone wants to be the exception Right. You can easily write 10x the number of lines than an average engineer and create negative value for the product.
- Gene_Parmesan 4y ago
  No, and this is a core misunderstanding of the profession. The job of software engineers is to design and implement solutions to business problems with technology. The job of a software engineer is not merely "write code." Writing code will almost certainly be the smallest percentage of a skilled engineer's time. They need to be spending their time thinking and designing. We're talking about solving extreme scaling problems at extreme scales here, not churning out crud apps at a local freelance studio.
  - ferrumfist 4y ago
    Junior/Mid Perspective: "I was hired to write code, sometimes I solve business problems" Senior/Staff's Perspective: "I was hired to solve business problems, sometimes I write code"
    - khazhoux 4y ago
      Hacker News Perspective: “I’m a software developer — how dare you ask to see my code! How dare you even imply that developers should be writing code! The best software organizations are the ones where barely a few people (out of thousanda of developers) actually write any code at all.” ;-)
      - ferrumfist 4y ago
        You're completely right, maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code. Maybe every complex problem humanity faces today has an equally easy solution. Maybe nuance and being methodical is for chumps.
        khazhoux 4y ago
        > maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code. I've never suggested someone should be fired if they can't produce code snippets. But it's fair to expect people who don't actively code (when they're not managers or have a non-coding title) to have a reason they're not coding. And there are many perfectly great reasons, especially for very senior engineers. But if someone isn't coding and they're not actually doing anything else of particular value... well, they're not valuable engineers. Code is not the single-and-only decider of an engineer's contributions, but I reject the notion that it can't be a starting filter to evaluate someone's contributions, and the assessment to proceed from there.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
moonchrome 4y ago
Do you actually write software then ? In practice I've found DevOps to mean "sysadmins who know how to write scripts and understand enough development process to be supportive".
- cesaref 4y ago
  I've found it to formalise the realisation that there are a number of developers who are hands on and keep the stuff running in production, and rather than employ another bunch to do this, it might make more sense to just leave the developers to it.
Teandw 4y ago
Then the email wasn't targeted to you. So all of what you said instantly becomes irrelevant.
JohnBooty 4y ago
I mean honestly, yeah? If I was forced to take part in this absolutely idiotic exercise I’d be including descriptions of the purpose of the code along with the screenshots/printouts. “These are the configuration files I maintain. Collectively these control the orchestration of 9,000 of our servers which make up over 80% of our infrastructure” would be be pretty compelling. Ultimately, while he’s going about it in an insane way that I will not defend one iota, he’s trying to figure out who does what. It’s one of those things where you have to read between the lines and figure out what the client/exec/boomer actually needs and wants, versus the nonsensical thing they actually asked for. Your boss who wants his emails printed out every morning may actually just literally want them on paper OR they may actually want a system of triaging and responding to messages that is easy to do with paper but is difficult to achieve with software (and is still, honestly, clunkier than using paper sometimes if we’re being honest)
- ncallaway 4y ago
  Or it's just a brute expression of dominance to find out who the subservient employees are. A hazing ritual to find out who is properly loyal, and who is unwilling to bend the knee. I don't think he cares too much about the screenshots themselves. I think this is a pretty simple test to see who comes running to the 10th floor and who says: "that's insane, no".
Terretta 4y ago
> A lot of Seniors/Staff don't write "code". They're architecting/planning/guiding. This is a problem.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  You want your seniors/staff to have engineering experience, but at some level complaining that they don’t code any more is like complaining that the people who design bridges aren’t going out there and laying concrete foundations 400m deep into river beds any more.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    no it'd be like saying people who design bridges don't need to know CAD you're saying they can't pour footings for a data center -- not the same job at all (or even can't set up a build system, which, god bless)
cowuser666 4y ago
Counterpoint: yes?

khazhoux 4y ago

In an org with thousands of software engineers, shouldn’t most of them be writing code? Feels like everyone wants to be the exception, and just assumes “someone else” should do actual hands-on work

dboreham 4y ago
> shouldn’t most of them be writing code In an org of that size, there's much work just in stopping other people writing really bad code.
- khazhoux 4y ago
  I definitely agree with this. But if an org is full of people doing nothing but this, you got a real problem on your hands.
halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
Every organization is different but no, I don't think most of them should be writing code. I wouldn't put any kind of quantifier on it. Software development is not just "writing code". Shipping code from ideation to production is more complicated than layman want to make it out to be, especially at these scales. This dystopian "nobody works" fantasy that some people wish for is simply that, a fantasy. I'm willing to bet most, if not all Twitter developers were above average across the industry and were producing work of value.
qwytw 4y ago
It's the other way around, The smaller the org the more lines per code you would expected per engineer. Scaling codebases is hard. > Feels like everyone wants to be the exception Right. You can easily write 10x the number of lines than an average engineer and create negative value for the product.
Gene_Parmesan 4y ago
No, and this is a core misunderstanding of the profession. The job of software engineers is to design and implement solutions to business problems with technology. The job of a software engineer is not merely "write code." Writing code will almost certainly be the smallest percentage of a skilled engineer's time. They need to be spending their time thinking and designing. We're talking about solving extreme scaling problems at extreme scales here, not churning out crud apps at a local freelance studio.
- ferrumfist 4y ago
  Junior/Mid Perspective: "I was hired to write code, sometimes I solve business problems" Senior/Staff's Perspective: "I was hired to solve business problems, sometimes I write code"
  - khazhoux 4y ago
    Hacker News Perspective: “I’m a software developer — how dare you ask to see my code! How dare you even imply that developers should be writing code! The best software organizations are the ones where barely a few people (out of thousanda of developers) actually write any code at all.” ;-)
    - ferrumfist 4y ago
      You're completely right, maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code. Maybe every complex problem humanity faces today has an equally easy solution. Maybe nuance and being methodical is for chumps.
      - khazhoux 4y ago
        > maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code. I've never suggested someone should be fired if they can't produce code snippets. But it's fair to expect people who don't actively code (when they're not managers or have a non-coding title) to have a reason they're not coding. And there are many perfectly great reasons, especially for very senior engineers. But if someone isn't coding and they're not actually doing anything else of particular value... well, they're not valuable engineers. Code is not the single-and-only decider of an engineer's contributions, but I reject the notion that it can't be a starting filter to evaluate someone's contributions, and the assessment to proceed from there.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

moonchrome 4y ago

Do you actually write software then ? In practice I've found DevOps to mean "sysadmins who know how to write scripts and understand enough development process to be supportive".

cesaref 4y ago
I've found it to formalise the realisation that there are a number of developers who are hands on and keep the stuff running in production, and rather than employ another bunch to do this, it might make more sense to just leave the developers to it.

Teandw 4y ago

Then the email wasn't targeted to you. So all of what you said instantly becomes irrelevant.

JohnBooty 4y ago

I mean honestly, yeah? If I was forced to take part in this absolutely idiotic exercise I’d be including descriptions of the purpose of the code along with the screenshots/printouts. “These are the configuration files I maintain. Collectively these control the orchestration of 9,000 of our servers which make up over 80% of our infrastructure” would be be pretty compelling. Ultimately, while he’s going about it in an insane way that I will not defend one iota, he’s trying to figure out who does what. It’s one of those things where you have to read between the lines and figure out what the client/exec/boomer actually needs and wants, versus the nonsensical thing they actually asked for. Your boss who wants his emails printed out every morning may actually just literally want them on paper OR they may actually want a system of triaging and responding to messages that is easy to do with paper but is difficult to achieve with software (and is still, honestly, clunkier than using paper sometimes if we’re being honest)

ncallaway 4y ago
Or it's just a brute expression of dominance to find out who the subservient employees are. A hazing ritual to find out who is properly loyal, and who is unwilling to bend the knee. I don't think he cares too much about the screenshots themselves. I think this is a pretty simple test to see who comes running to the 10th floor and who says: "that's insane, no".

Terretta 4y ago

> A lot of Seniors/Staff don't write "code". They're architecting/planning/guiding. This is a problem.

JohnBooty 4y ago
You want your seniors/staff to have engineering experience, but at some level complaining that they don’t code any more is like complaining that the people who design bridges aren’t going out there and laying concrete foundations 400m deep into river beds any more.
- Terretta 4y ago
  no it'd be like saying people who design bridges don't need to know CAD you're saying they can't pour footings for a data center -- not the same job at all (or even can't set up a build system, which, god bless)

cowuser666 4y ago

Counterpoint: yes?