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There is an easy counter model. The universe is _literally_ a real number machine, i.e. even a particular point is only describable to us in the approximate. Th

by voxl 4y ago

There is an easy counter model. The universe is _literally_ a real number machine, i.e. even a particular point is only describable to us in the approximate. The laws of physics get to be finite, but you can't talk about a particular location or place in time without infinite information, or you talk about it in the approximate.

Mtinie 4y ago
Am I correctly summarizing this statement, for my own understanding? “All values in the cosmos are integers. Decimals exist to help humans make comparisons between objects.”
- empyrrhicist 4y ago
  I mean, they seem to be saying the exact opposite of that based on the usual way people talk about the "reals".
- Blackthorn 4y ago
  No. They're talking about real numbers; even decimal numbers (rationals) are isomorphic to integers. The reals are different.
visarga 4y ago
You could put all the human knowledge in a single real number and still have infinite room left.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  There exists an abstract mathematical mapping, sure. However, finding the spot in the real number where that's the case may require infinite storage (you need to store the pointer) or infinite time (you start searching through the number to find what you want). It also has a halting problem where you don't actually know how you'll know when you find that data.
civilized 4y ago
> The universe is _literally_ a real number machine I am wary of this. Just because you have a good predictive model based on math, and the math can be made rigorous using ZFC / Cauchy sequences / infinite decimals / etc., doesn't mean that any of those rigorous mathematical concepts are literally running the real universe. Personally I don't think there's any reason to believe that any numbers, even zero and one, have any existence outside of being concepts in our heads.
- oezi 4y ago
  I don't get what you say in the last paragraph. Isn't the mapping of zero and one to nothing and something kind of the easiest thing (e.g. one photon or no photon)? For the first paragraph it is my understanding that the universe is discrete/quantizied and it is not running on 'real numbers'.
  - civilized 4y ago
    > I don't get what you say in the last paragraph. Isn't the mapping of zero and one to nothing and something kind of the easiest thing (e.g. one photon or no photon)? You can map and mapping is useful, but the map lives in your head and isn't the territory. > For the first paragraph it is my understanding that the universe is discrete/quantizied and it is not running on 'real numbers'. This is a widely believed folk myth among software engineers, but it isn't supported by evidence. There are some speculative theories that try to solve some problems in physics by quantizing space, but right now they are no more empirically supported than other speculations.
    - lo_zamoyski 4y ago
      Worth a read: 1. "Russell’s No Man’s Land" [0] 2. "The hollow universe of modern physics" [1] [0] https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2020/08/russells-no-mans-land.html https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2020/08/russells-no-mans-la... [1] https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-hollow-universe-of-modern-physics.html https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-hollow-universe...
    - 4y ago
Enginerrrd 4y ago
>There is an easy counter model. The universe is _literally_ a real number machine, i.e. even a particular point is only describable to us in the approximate. There is actually some debate about that, and for good reason. There are even a couple of practicing physicists looking at how predictions would differ assuming the universe has finite precision, and if I recall correctly the results from that investigation are non-trivial.

by voxl 4y ago

Mtinie 4y ago

Am I correctly summarizing this statement, for my own understanding? “All values in the cosmos are integers. Decimals exist to help humans make comparisons between objects.”

empyrrhicist 4y ago
I mean, they seem to be saying the exact opposite of that based on the usual way people talk about the "reals".
Blackthorn 4y ago
No. They're talking about real numbers; even decimal numbers (rationals) are isomorphic to integers. The reals are different.

visarga 4y ago

You could put all the human knowledge in a single real number and still have infinite room left.

vlovich123 4y ago
There exists an abstract mathematical mapping, sure. However, finding the spot in the real number where that's the case may require infinite storage (you need to store the pointer) or infinite time (you start searching through the number to find what you want). It also has a halting problem where you don't actually know how you'll know when you find that data.

civilized 4y ago

> The universe is _literally_ a real number machine I am wary of this. Just because you have a good predictive model based on math, and the math can be made rigorous using ZFC / Cauchy sequences / infinite decimals / etc., doesn't mean that any of those rigorous mathematical concepts are literally running the real universe. Personally I don't think there's any reason to believe that any numbers, even zero and one, have any existence outside of being concepts in our heads.

oezi 4y ago
I don't get what you say in the last paragraph. Isn't the mapping of zero and one to nothing and something kind of the easiest thing (e.g. one photon or no photon)? For the first paragraph it is my understanding that the universe is discrete/quantizied and it is not running on 'real numbers'.
- civilized 4y ago
  > I don't get what you say in the last paragraph. Isn't the mapping of zero and one to nothing and something kind of the easiest thing (e.g. one photon or no photon)? You can map and mapping is useful, but the map lives in your head and isn't the territory. > For the first paragraph it is my understanding that the universe is discrete/quantizied and it is not running on 'real numbers'. This is a widely believed folk myth among software engineers, but it isn't supported by evidence. There are some speculative theories that try to solve some problems in physics by quantizing space, but right now they are no more empirically supported than other speculations.
  - lo_zamoyski 4y ago
    Worth a read: 1. "Russell’s No Man’s Land" [0] 2. "The hollow universe of modern physics" [1] [0] https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2020/08/russells-no-mans-land.html https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2020/08/russells-no-mans-la... [1] https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-hollow-universe-of-modern-physics.html https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-hollow-universe...
  - 4y ago

Enginerrrd 4y ago

>There is an easy counter model. The universe is _literally_ a real number machine, i.e. even a particular point is only describable to us in the approximate. There is actually some debate about that, and for good reason. There are even a couple of practicing physicists looking at how predictions would differ assuming the universe has finite precision, and if I recall correctly the results from that investigation are non-trivial.