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I agree it's not ideal, but I can tell you why I'm excited about things like[0] Tailscale, Cloudflare Tunnel, ngrok, etc. They enable you to move your selfhost

I agree it's not ideal, but I can tell you why I'm excited about things like[0] Tailscale, Cloudflare Tunnel, ngrok, etc. They enable you to move your selfhosted services from expensive, slow VPSes you don't control to fast devices in your own home[4]. IMO this is strictly better than a VPS in terms of privacy and data control. It's a step in the right direction, back towards the initial intent of the internet, but also forward with the lessons we've learned in the real world. The reality today is that selfhosting is way too hard[1]. It shouldn't be any more complicated or less secure than running an app on your phone. I think services like Tailscale are going to enable the first generation of selfhosting that approaches that level of simplicity. Once the market is proven, the second generation is going be designed for selfhosters and have features like end-to-end encryption, domain name integration, and simple GUI interfaces. The other key pieces are strong sandboxing, which is now possible on all major desktop OSes through virtualization (mobile is coming[2]), and dead-simple cloud backups. The technology for all these things exists, it just hasn't been integrated yet. [0]: https://github.com/anderspitman/awesome-tunneling https://github.com/anderspitman/awesome-tunneling [1]: https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html [2]: https://twitter.com/kdrag0n/status/1584017653269958656?lang=en https://twitter.com/kdrag0n/status/1584017653269958656?lang=... [4]: I concede that the network upload connection is likely much slower, but expect that to improve over time.

VikingCoder 4y ago
Strong sandboxing, yes. But I'd especially appreciate it if it was wrapped up in an interface like Sandstorm.io. I want to teach something like Tailscale about my contacts, so they are allowed to communicate with my services (through their services). Then I want to run an app inside a strong sanbox that has capability-based APIs to do things kind of like ZeroMQ for sending messages TO THE CONTACTS. I don't want the API to look like a tcp/ip or udp connection. I want the app to think it's sending a message to a contact I've given it permission to talk to. If this was running in a strong sandbox, I think this would be an awesome way to develop and use simple federated apps. If something like Mastodon existed on top of this, I'd think it would be really secure and much easier to tell people to stand up their own node...
- anderspitman 4y ago
  I consider Sandstorm to sort of be the platonic ideal in many ways. But in practice, the fact that the apps have to be modified to run on it holds it back.
  - VikingCoder 4y ago
    Sure, but I feel like that's just part of the trade-offs. And chicken-and-egg, really. But if I were really bought in to Sandstorm.io, developing new apps for it would make a lot of sense, and I agree with their assessments about accounts and security - that those are better left to the OS. So I'm just wanting to build federated apps, using that same philosophy. And if Tailscale Funnel let me safely run in a sandbox on prem...? That sounds amazing. Like, this is the kind of thing where I'd buy a headless PC just to host federated apps for my extended friends and family network, if the config were painless enough and the sandbox secure enough, and the self-updating, self-maintaining story of Sandstorm.io worked well enough... It's like the Chrome OS of federation, in my head. The OS does exactly and only what you need, making it easy for you to add the business logic of your thing. Like, I wish this was roughly how SAS worked... I wish to hell more businesses felt secure in letting their employees stand up convenience servers. And I feel like these are steps in the right direction.
discardedrefuse 4y ago
> They enable you to move your selfhosted services from expensive, slow VPSes you don't control to fast devices in your own home[4]. IMO this is strictly better than a VPS in terms of privacy and data control. How is trusting your network entry point to Cloudflare (or whoever) any better than having it at a VPS? At least with the VPS you know what's happening inside the box. Here's a better solution: Get a free/cheap VPS. Setup a Wireguard tunnel from your home server to it. Slap a reverse proxy on the VPS that forwards internet traffic through the tunnel to your home server.
- anderspitman 4y ago
  > How is trusting your network entry point to Cloudflare (or whoever) any better than having it at a VPS? I was referring to the other advantages, not the privacy. They're about the same on privacy. > Here's a better solution: Get a free/cheap VPS. Setup a Wireguard tunnel from your home server to it. Slap a reverse proxy on the VPS that forwards internet traffic through the tunnel to your home server. Way too difficult for the users I'm trying to reach.

VikingCoder 4y ago

Strong sandboxing, yes. But I'd especially appreciate it if it was wrapped up in an interface like Sandstorm.io. I want to teach something like Tailscale about my contacts, so they are allowed to communicate with my services (through their services). Then I want to run an app inside a strong sanbox that has capability-based APIs to do things kind of like ZeroMQ for sending messages TO THE CONTACTS. I don't want the API to look like a tcp/ip or udp connection. I want the app to think it's sending a message to a contact I've given it permission to talk to. If this was running in a strong sandbox, I think this would be an awesome way to develop and use simple federated apps. If something like Mastodon existed on top of this, I'd think it would be really secure and much easier to tell people to stand up their own node...

anderspitman 4y ago
I consider Sandstorm to sort of be the platonic ideal in many ways. But in practice, the fact that the apps have to be modified to run on it holds it back.
- VikingCoder 4y ago
  Sure, but I feel like that's just part of the trade-offs. And chicken-and-egg, really. But if I were really bought in to Sandstorm.io, developing new apps for it would make a lot of sense, and I agree with their assessments about accounts and security - that those are better left to the OS. So I'm just wanting to build federated apps, using that same philosophy. And if Tailscale Funnel let me safely run in a sandbox on prem...? That sounds amazing. Like, this is the kind of thing where I'd buy a headless PC just to host federated apps for my extended friends and family network, if the config were painless enough and the sandbox secure enough, and the self-updating, self-maintaining story of Sandstorm.io worked well enough... It's like the Chrome OS of federation, in my head. The OS does exactly and only what you need, making it easy for you to add the business logic of your thing. Like, I wish this was roughly how SAS worked... I wish to hell more businesses felt secure in letting their employees stand up convenience servers. And I feel like these are steps in the right direction.

discardedrefuse 4y ago

> They enable you to move your selfhosted services from expensive, slow VPSes you don't control to fast devices in your own home[4]. IMO this is strictly better than a VPS in terms of privacy and data control. How is trusting your network entry point to Cloudflare (or whoever) any better than having it at a VPS? At least with the VPS you know what's happening inside the box. Here's a better solution: Get a free/cheap VPS. Setup a Wireguard tunnel from your home server to it. Slap a reverse proxy on the VPS that forwards internet traffic through the tunnel to your home server.

anderspitman 4y ago
> How is trusting your network entry point to Cloudflare (or whoever) any better than having it at a VPS? I was referring to the other advantages, not the privacy. They're about the same on privacy. > Here's a better solution: Get a free/cheap VPS. Setup a Wireguard tunnel from your home server to it. Slap a reverse proxy on the VPS that forwards internet traffic through the tunnel to your home server. Way too difficult for the users I'm trying to reach.