8 ms·

People may be slow to forgive as they may think it gives something to the other, a type of concession, an admission of something, something on one side of an eq

People may be slow to forgive as they may think it gives something to the other, a type of concession, an admission of something, something on one side of an equation. But forgiveness mainly gives something to oneself not the other. It frees oneself from that hold over oneself. Apologies, if they are expected, are expected within the frame of a transaction. But forgiveness which doesn't seek something from the other can be given without an apology. The person who is forgiven doesn't need to know they are forgiven. Even if they are told, the feeling of freedom and the actual forgiveness comes before that.

conductr 4y ago
> The person who is forgiven doesn't need to know they are forgiven. Even if they are told, the feeling of freedom and the actual forgiveness comes before that. I was with you until this last bit. My experience is that people will beg for forgiveness. Even if you forgive them, you’ll then find it’s reconciliation they were after. They will then ignore your forgiveness, or rather continue asking for it until you provide them a sense of reconciliation. I usually cut ties by then. They typically don’t really care how you feel and it’s all to boost their own ego and right the wrongs they’ve inflicted in their own mind. Maybe not universally applicable but my experiences seem to follow this pattern.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  apologies are supposed to be an acknowledgement that they wronged you and letting them know you forgive them allows them to have closure so THEY can move on with their lives (emotionally). We use it as the grease between the wheels for smaller things because we can't know what's in each others heads. And for larger things, it allows both parties to move on. To forgive without letting the other person know is absolutely about punishment (assuming they're alive, available, etc). I had a brother who had a fiance that left him, when she went to get remarried she sent him an email basically apologizing for all the shitty things she did and asking for forgiveness. he came to me in tears asking what he should do and I told him not to respond. Don't give her that closure, she wants to start her new life "clean". I have no idea what he ended up doing, he never told me. Knowing him, he most likely did respond, but my point is that I viewed her apology as selfish and would have preferred she never got that closure.
  - 1659447091 4y ago
    >> but my point is that I viewed her apology as selfish and would have preferred she never got that closure. I have never believed one could receive forgiveness from another. Forgiveness comes from the self. In order to move on - from guilt or harm - we must forgive ourselves. Forgive our guilt, our shame, our self-blame; whatever we blame ourselves for our part in it - even if that part was being in the wrong place at the wrong time or trusting the wrong person. Forgiving only the other person doesn't solve the real harm we do to ourselves. I think it's an overlooked part of healing. I understand the desire to want her to suffer for the hurt she caused your brother. However, in this context, I see it as her giving herself closure from the guilt by sending the apology. Acknowledgment from the other is not necessary (but maybe would have been nice); she had done all that was in her control. Instead of giving the power to another or waiting for them to maybe provide closure, giving it to ourselves is the most healing thing we can do - no matter which side of the offense we are on.
    - milesvp 4y ago
      What I find interesting is the feeling of honestly forgiving. whatever the other person feels, just simply forgiving someone of some slight or wrong they may or even may not have done to you can be very cathartic. It was only recently in my life it even occurred to me to actually forgive someone rather than just saying the words.
- eduction 4y ago
  It seems like you may fundamentally agree with the person you are replying to. The person who is forgiven may feel they need to know they are forgiven, but that doesn't mean they actually do. Your example of someone who really wants reconciliation, and has confused it with forgiveness, seems like a good case of someone not actually needing to know they are forgiven, because it's not what they really want or care about anyway.
  - conductr 4y ago
    Good point, this may be the case.
    - mjburgess 4y ago
      Yes, I think so. Half of my point may be that as, eg., jealous (defensive) has been conflated with envy (offensive); and as social-emotional language appears to have somewhat degraded (where is, today, 'guilt' ?)... likewise, we have conflated forgiveness with reconsiliation. Where perhaps, in a recent past, to be forgiven was more obviously "to be released from the burden of mattering, one way or another". A few might, then, genuinely want forgiveness because they feel guilt that you still hate them. But many moreso feel no guilt, what they want is to be reconsiled. To be judged positive and worthwhile. If this transition has occured, it would line up with the guilt->shame, envy-jealousy, etc. transitions. It would be a co-opting of noble language (genuinely wishing forgiveness) for ignoble selfish reasons (wishing reconsiliation). I find this thesis prima fascie plausible, in that I feel under-educated in the nobility of guilt, the dangers of envy, and the purpose of forgiveness. An education, i'd say, my great-grandparents certainly had.

conductr 4y ago

> The person who is forgiven doesn't need to know they are forgiven. Even if they are told, the feeling of freedom and the actual forgiveness comes before that. I was with you until this last bit. My experience is that people will beg for forgiveness. Even if you forgive them, you’ll then find it’s reconciliation they were after. They will then ignore your forgiveness, or rather continue asking for it until you provide them a sense of reconciliation. I usually cut ties by then. They typically don’t really care how you feel and it’s all to boost their own ego and right the wrongs they’ve inflicted in their own mind. Maybe not universally applicable but my experiences seem to follow this pattern.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
apologies are supposed to be an acknowledgement that they wronged you and letting them know you forgive them allows them to have closure so THEY can move on with their lives (emotionally). We use it as the grease between the wheels for smaller things because we can't know what's in each others heads. And for larger things, it allows both parties to move on. To forgive without letting the other person know is absolutely about punishment (assuming they're alive, available, etc). I had a brother who had a fiance that left him, when she went to get remarried she sent him an email basically apologizing for all the shitty things she did and asking for forgiveness. he came to me in tears asking what he should do and I told him not to respond. Don't give her that closure, she wants to start her new life "clean". I have no idea what he ended up doing, he never told me. Knowing him, he most likely did respond, but my point is that I viewed her apology as selfish and would have preferred she never got that closure.
- 1659447091 4y ago
  >> but my point is that I viewed her apology as selfish and would have preferred she never got that closure. I have never believed one could receive forgiveness from another. Forgiveness comes from the self. In order to move on - from guilt or harm - we must forgive ourselves. Forgive our guilt, our shame, our self-blame; whatever we blame ourselves for our part in it - even if that part was being in the wrong place at the wrong time or trusting the wrong person. Forgiving only the other person doesn't solve the real harm we do to ourselves. I think it's an overlooked part of healing. I understand the desire to want her to suffer for the hurt she caused your brother. However, in this context, I see it as her giving herself closure from the guilt by sending the apology. Acknowledgment from the other is not necessary (but maybe would have been nice); she had done all that was in her control. Instead of giving the power to another or waiting for them to maybe provide closure, giving it to ourselves is the most healing thing we can do - no matter which side of the offense we are on.
  - milesvp 4y ago
    What I find interesting is the feeling of honestly forgiving. whatever the other person feels, just simply forgiving someone of some slight or wrong they may or even may not have done to you can be very cathartic. It was only recently in my life it even occurred to me to actually forgive someone rather than just saying the words.
eduction 4y ago
It seems like you may fundamentally agree with the person you are replying to. The person who is forgiven may feel they need to know they are forgiven, but that doesn't mean they actually do. Your example of someone who really wants reconciliation, and has confused it with forgiveness, seems like a good case of someone not actually needing to know they are forgiven, because it's not what they really want or care about anyway.
- conductr 4y ago
  Good point, this may be the case.
  - mjburgess 4y ago
    Yes, I think so. Half of my point may be that as, eg., jealous (defensive) has been conflated with envy (offensive); and as social-emotional language appears to have somewhat degraded (where is, today, 'guilt' ?)... likewise, we have conflated forgiveness with reconsiliation. Where perhaps, in a recent past, to be forgiven was more obviously "to be released from the burden of mattering, one way or another". A few might, then, genuinely want forgiveness because they feel guilt that you still hate them. But many moreso feel no guilt, what they want is to be reconsiled. To be judged positive and worthwhile. If this transition has occured, it would line up with the guilt->shame, envy-jealousy, etc. transitions. It would be a co-opting of noble language (genuinely wishing forgiveness) for ignoble selfish reasons (wishing reconsiliation). I find this thesis prima fascie plausible, in that I feel under-educated in the nobility of guilt, the dangers of envy, and the purpose of forgiveness. An education, i'd say, my great-grandparents certainly had.