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Whoever figures out a secular distillation of the concept of grace is going to be very, very successful in community-building. The lack of it is painfully appar

Whoever figures out a secular distillation of the concept of grace is going to be very, very successful in community-building. The lack of it is painfully apparent, and it offers something to both the accused and the accusers. Now, whether people actually want that from others in these cases, or are merely enjoying the use of power a little too much, is another discussion.

seydor 4y ago
grace or forgiveness?
- tdehnel 4y ago
  Forgiveness: Making a big deal about how great you are for not judging someone, making it all about you. I forgive you. Grace: Getting on with your life and not letting yourself get caught up in someone else’s moral failings. You do you.
  - chasd00 4y ago
    I can see how forgiveness can be weaponized like that but to me forgiveness is only there to benefit the forgiver. Granted, getting good at forgiveness risks you just becoming a door mat. Similarly, Getting good at grace risks you becoming naive and ignorant to the world around you.
    - d4mi3n 4y ago
      How does this dynamic of grace vs forgiveness interact with genuine feelings of guilt? There are times in life where we (or people around us) fuck up. Genuine remorse occurs and receiving forgiveness can bring closure as it can signal that a relationship with someone is still there. I think assuming forgiveness is a one-way interaction may be true in some contexts, but not all.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
I genuinely don't think it's compatible with contemporary western morality that holds that actions are either valid expressions of self-actualization and so require no apology, or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible. The idea that regardless of a person's "right" to make a certain choice, an action can be so harmful that it cannot be corrected, but also that it can be forgiven is too far from how we think and live now.
- ldldldo 4y ago
  This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace. I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has been entirely Coastal people who have cut me out of their lives for things like saying I think the EcoHealth Alliance might have had something to do with COVID-19. The ones left in my life are the ones that know how to give grace. Sure, this is anecdotal, but it's cultural commentary. And to throw a bone and not pick too much on one side of the culture war, the Red areas have their own pathologies. For instance, while they won't necessarily stop talking to you altogether if you do something wrong, but lots of them will spread shit about you all over the community if you do. Maybe everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic, whether or not they believe in him in so many words
  - user3939382 4y ago
    > everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic Yup. The new thing is that we’re too smart and cool for all the things religion teaches, while we scratch our heads trying to solve all the problems it gives you the solution for.
    - unethical_ban 4y ago
      I think my intense aversion to Christianity originates from knowing only those people who take the Bible literally and have true faith in the stories that are told. Hell actually exists, gay people go there, divorce is fine though, oh don't worry about that line, etc. It's all very pick and choose. I think I would have had much more interest in faith/religion if they acknowledged the myth component of their stories, and acknowledged the utility of abiding by the framework nonetheless.
munificent 4y ago
A related concept that I think about all the time is that we have an intuitive understanding of what reputation and trust mean for individuals based on our evolutionary history as social animals. But it's not at all clear that an intuitive trust or reputation model that works well for individuals scales to something reasonable when applied to groups and institutions. Bayer (well, IG Farben) made the Zyklon B used in the gas chambers of the Holocaust. Is Bayer still evil even though no one who did that is still there? Can they be forgiven? Should they be? Where does the conscience of an organization reside and how can others tell if it has been remediated? Can an organization feel shame or remorse? Is the US good or evil? What kind of reasonable aggregation function could you possibly define that takes as inputs enshrining slavery in the Constitution, the Trail of Tears, later freeing the slaves, the Marshall Plan, etc. and is able to somehow weigh those against each other to produce a single meaningful output?
hellfish 4y ago
This reply will probably get downvoted, but grace has inherent issues. Actual grace in Christianity involves becoming a believer, no? That comes with its own set of obligations. Combine this with a culture that jumps at the opportunity to capitalize off of people's misery and you have a recipe for self destruction. Look at the pharma companies poisoning this country with opiates if you want an example Grace requires a level of trust that isn't possible in the current economic configuration

seydor 4y ago

grace or forgiveness?

tdehnel 4y ago
Forgiveness: Making a big deal about how great you are for not judging someone, making it all about you. I forgive you. Grace: Getting on with your life and not letting yourself get caught up in someone else’s moral failings. You do you.
- chasd00 4y ago
  I can see how forgiveness can be weaponized like that but to me forgiveness is only there to benefit the forgiver. Granted, getting good at forgiveness risks you just becoming a door mat. Similarly, Getting good at grace risks you becoming naive and ignorant to the world around you.
  - d4mi3n 4y ago
    How does this dynamic of grace vs forgiveness interact with genuine feelings of guilt? There are times in life where we (or people around us) fuck up. Genuine remorse occurs and receiving forgiveness can bring closure as it can signal that a relationship with someone is still there. I think assuming forgiveness is a one-way interaction may be true in some contexts, but not all.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

I genuinely don't think it's compatible with contemporary western morality that holds that actions are either valid expressions of self-actualization and so require no apology, or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible. The idea that regardless of a person's "right" to make a certain choice, an action can be so harmful that it cannot be corrected, but also that it can be forgiven is too far from how we think and live now.

ldldldo 4y ago
This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace. I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has been entirely Coastal people who have cut me out of their lives for things like saying I think the EcoHealth Alliance might have had something to do with COVID-19. The ones left in my life are the ones that know how to give grace. Sure, this is anecdotal, but it's cultural commentary. And to throw a bone and not pick too much on one side of the culture war, the Red areas have their own pathologies. For instance, while they won't necessarily stop talking to you altogether if you do something wrong, but lots of them will spread shit about you all over the community if you do. Maybe everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic, whether or not they believe in him in so many words
- user3939382 4y ago
  > everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic Yup. The new thing is that we’re too smart and cool for all the things religion teaches, while we scratch our heads trying to solve all the problems it gives you the solution for.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    I think my intense aversion to Christianity originates from knowing only those people who take the Bible literally and have true faith in the stories that are told. Hell actually exists, gay people go there, divorce is fine though, oh don't worry about that line, etc. It's all very pick and choose. I think I would have had much more interest in faith/religion if they acknowledged the myth component of their stories, and acknowledged the utility of abiding by the framework nonetheless.

munificent 4y ago

A related concept that I think about all the time is that we have an intuitive understanding of what reputation and trust mean for individuals based on our evolutionary history as social animals. But it's not at all clear that an intuitive trust or reputation model that works well for individuals scales to something reasonable when applied to groups and institutions. Bayer (well, IG Farben) made the Zyklon B used in the gas chambers of the Holocaust. Is Bayer still evil even though no one who did that is still there? Can they be forgiven? Should they be? Where does the conscience of an organization reside and how can others tell if it has been remediated? Can an organization feel shame or remorse? Is the US good or evil? What kind of reasonable aggregation function could you possibly define that takes as inputs enshrining slavery in the Constitution, the Trail of Tears, later freeing the slaves, the Marshall Plan, etc. and is able to somehow weigh those against each other to produce a single meaningful output?

hellfish 4y ago

This reply will probably get downvoted, but grace has inherent issues. Actual grace in Christianity involves becoming a believer, no? That comes with its own set of obligations. Combine this with a culture that jumps at the opportunity to capitalize off of people's misery and you have a recipe for self destruction. Look at the pharma companies poisoning this country with opiates if you want an example Grace requires a level of trust that isn't possible in the current economic configuration