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> (investments, debt, advertiser dollars, ...) I think the problem is that the first pipe is just investment/debt. You need a second pipe of money coming in -

> (investments, debt, advertiser dollars, ...) I think the problem is that the first pipe is just investment/debt. You need a second pipe of money coming in -- ad revenue, sales, fees for services provided -- or else, as said, the money going back to investors can't exceed the money coming in from investment. As long as that second money pipe remains aspirational/marginal, there's just not much potential.

mannerheim 4y ago
The second pipe is also what represents real value. Sellers buy ad space to find buyers (if they can't, the ad sale business isn't sustainable). Seller values what they sell at less than what the buyer pays (on average), and vice versa for the buyer. Both are better off, value is created. What we have in crypto is as if somebody invented the Internet, and the only thing anybody used it for was to trade stock in Internet companies. Not companies in general, which would at least provide an external source of value, but only Internet companies in an overgrowing ouroboros of speculation upon itself.
noxer 4y ago
The flaw in all of this is that people who buy crypto are not investing in something so its entirely pointless whether there is something that generates revenue. If you buy crypto you trade 2 assets like USD > BTC Its the same as if you buy baseball cards USD > baseball card You bet on the value of one asset to increase over the other. The correct term for this is speculation [1] not investment [2]. Speculation doesn't require anyone to do any "work" (as in produce goods or services). Speculation required that there is or will be an imbalance in the supply and demand of the involved assets which can happen for infinite other reason that someone creating revenue while somehow being associated with that asset. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment
pontus 4y ago
So stuff like precious metals, commodities (energy, corn, pork, ...), stocks that don't pay dividends, etc are then also equally worthless? I don't think holding a barrel of oil or a bar of gold, or a share of Berkshire Hathaway will generate any income for me. I'd need to sell it to someone else for me to get my money back.
- saalweachter 4y ago
  You're presuming that every purchase of a commodity -- even gold -- is an investment in it. People also purchase commodities to consume them. The commodity exits the world o' commodities and the money stays, to be returned to investors.

mannerheim 4y ago

The second pipe is also what represents real value. Sellers buy ad space to find buyers (if they can't, the ad sale business isn't sustainable). Seller values what they sell at less than what the buyer pays (on average), and vice versa for the buyer. Both are better off, value is created. What we have in crypto is as if somebody invented the Internet, and the only thing anybody used it for was to trade stock in Internet companies. Not companies in general, which would at least provide an external source of value, but only Internet companies in an overgrowing ouroboros of speculation upon itself.

noxer 4y ago

The flaw in all of this is that people who buy crypto are not investing in something so its entirely pointless whether there is something that generates revenue. If you buy crypto you trade 2 assets like USD > BTC Its the same as if you buy baseball cards USD > baseball card You bet on the value of one asset to increase over the other. The correct term for this is speculation [1] not investment [2]. Speculation doesn't require anyone to do any "work" (as in produce goods or services). Speculation required that there is or will be an imbalance in the supply and demand of the involved assets which can happen for infinite other reason that someone creating revenue while somehow being associated with that asset. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment

pontus 4y ago

So stuff like precious metals, commodities (energy, corn, pork, ...), stocks that don't pay dividends, etc are then also equally worthless? I don't think holding a barrel of oil or a bar of gold, or a share of Berkshire Hathaway will generate any income for me. I'd need to sell it to someone else for me to get my money back.

saalweachter 4y ago
You're presuming that every purchase of a commodity -- even gold -- is an investment in it. People also purchase commodities to consume them. The commodity exits the world o' commodities and the money stays, to be returned to investors.