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The US is a surveillance pseudo-democracy. The problem here being this time they can't insert themselves into the surveillance pipeline. They're not better or
by weego 4y ago
The US is a surveillance pseudo-democracy.
The problem here being this time they can't insert themselves into the surveillance pipeline.
They're not better or worse (unless you're fine with your own Govt surveilling you but not another state), just not the status quo.
- dahfizz 4y agoThis is absurd, frankly. "The US government collects taxes on US citizens, why not let China collect taxes on US citizens? Its the same." "The US government throws US citizens in jail, why not let Chine throw US citizens in jail? Its the same." Yeah, it would be great if the Federal government turned down their surveillance. That doesn't make it okay for China to run psy-ops against us.
- pozdnyshev 4y ago
- pjc50 4y agohttps://www.newsy.com/stories/american-athlete-shares-experience-being-detained-in-china/ https://www.newsy.com/stories/american-athlete-shares-experi... (and obviously if you're a US national in China you'll pay Chinese and US taxes, because of the weird extraterritorial taxation of the US)
- encryptluks2 4y agoI see a lot of US psyops and I'm an American. That is even more disturbing IMO. I'd expect it from a foreign nation but not my own country. Also, why can't we just make education about foreign influence part of our curriculum and national discussion. Why do we have to ban things like speech to protect people? That is borderline just becoming China-like in itself.
- sgu999 4y agoCritical thinking would be a good start... but TikTok also targets a very young and immature audience that is already protected from many other things by rules.
- encryptluks2 4y agoIn public elementary school here in the US they literally taught me indoctrination everyday by doing cult like rituals and allegiance to a cloth and history that whitewashed the crimes. How are young people in America supposed to be taught to think freely when they are shunned for thinking outside of the American way?
- SuoDuanDao 4y agoThere's a golden mean between insufficient patriotism to defend your kin domain from an outsider whose victory would be genuinely worse than the current status quo, and insufficient self-criticism to prevent your kin domain from becoming worse than the current status quo through inertia. Navigating that kind of dichotomy can be learned through practice, I think the challenge in the US in particular is that the two political parties so associate the other one with one of the unhealthy extremes that the center has trouble holding.
- cscurmudgeon 4y agoHave you seen what happens in China *today*? https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/30/chinese-communist-party-han-baby-boom-sterilization-ethnic-minorities/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/30/chinese-communist-party... Back to topic: Applying critical thinking, you can be patriotic and a critical thinker. You can love a country and still be a critical thinker. Just like you can love a person but be aware of their flaws.
- conductr 4y ago> That doesn't make it okay for China to run psy-ops against us Downloading and using TikTok is a personal choice and you’ve allowed it by doing so as an individual. I don’t think we should ban individual apps from other countries. If we want that, we need some larger more thoughtful policy. But to do so effectively, we essentially need to put up a firewall and ban the sharing of domestically collected data as well (amongst other things, like enforcing these bans.) PSY-ops as mentioned sounds negative but I’d argue it’s what TikTok and social media consumers enjoy the most.
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago> Downloading and using TikTok is a personal choice and you’ve allowed it by doing so as an individual. Not if it interferes with security of the country. The same personal choice argument is what folks use to justify other choices that are bad (refusing well test vaccines, not paying taxes, etc.)
- conductr 4y agoI view it more like a vice (smoking, gambling, etc) and as mentioned we need an actual thoughtful policy if we think it’s a security issue. Banning one app at a time is not the way.
- cscurmudgeon 4y agoAlmost vices are regulated. > Banning one app at a time is not the way. True, let us ban *all* apps from countries that (1) ban US apps and (2) seek to influence US citizens.
- conductr 4y ago> True, let us ban all apps from countries that (1) ban US apps and (2) seek to influence US citizens. My view is the "app" is just a client for information sharing. It would be like putting up a firewall or banning traffic from certain TLD's. Seems ironic that the solution is to mimic the problem.
- sharperguy 4y agoIsn't the logic reversed in this case? Spying on US citizens is fine as long as you aren't the US government. Hence 5 eyes and so on.
- d0mine 4y agoShould other countries ban facebook, instagram, twitter, youtube, google, etc?
- dd36 4y agoThe US is not better or worse than an autocracy?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mc32 4y agoTheir post is exactly the kind of non-blatant thing that would be used to undermine US interests on TikTok.
- whateveracct 4y agoAny thread criticizing China on HN is full of logical fallacy, whataboutism, and other similar bad faith arguments that gum up the discussion. Contrarianism runs rampant on HN and is easily weaponized by bad actors.
- pozdnyshev 4y ago
- plaguepilled 4y agoThere is a very relevant difference between a country which affords you civil rights surveiling you, and a country that you are not a civilian of surveiling you. Its not just about being "fine" with one surveiling you and not the other.
- piva00 4y agoSo many argument threads on HN (and other discussion platforms) could be avoided if people understood that level and degree of issues matter. It seems to always start from blanket statements or false dichotomies where "if your country does X why are you not ok with C country doing X?" and completely ignoring the nuances in between.
- sgu999 4y agoAnd in this case it's even C country going Y.
- solumunus 4y agoThey're very clearly "better". What an insane assertion.
- mattgperry 4y agoThey are better though? People don't routinely go disappearing (at least on the same scale) and there are free and (mostly) fair elections. It isn't perfect but it isn't the same beast.
- howmayiannoyyou 4y agoSurveillance isn't the primary issue. INFLUENCE OPERATIONS is. China's ability to direct content to achieve their strategic goals, and to do so at a very granular level, is too great a risk. Its not the only property with this capability (cough, 4chan/pol/, cough), but its by far the largest.
- pjc50 4y agoAren't influence operations free speech? (thread locked after 1,397,957 comments)
- howmayiannoyyou 4y agoYes. So is yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre. Nothing is without limits, and with out limits we are nothing.
- QuarterReptile 4y ago>So is yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre. A course of action so blatantly legal that a Supreme Court Justice used it as an example for what is clearly allowed, dislikeable though it may be. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_t...
- zip1234 4y agoThere is no right for foreign governments to have free speech in the US. If they are outside of the US they do not get US rights.
- CyanBird 4y ago> China's Tiktok is not China, Tiktok is owned by a private company All the arguments that you are using can be successful leveraged against any Inqtel funded private company (of which there are plenty), so I'd recommend you to speak in a measured way
- 4y ago
- Yawnzy 4y agoSeriously. The only problem the FBI’s owners have with TikTok is that they can’t police the content