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Besides the obvious concerns about tracking/spying, TikTok has great potential as a propaganda tool to gain subtle influence over America's youth. For example,

Besides the obvious concerns about tracking/spying, TikTok has great potential as a propaganda tool to gain subtle influence over America's youth. For example, its algorithm could be tweaked to elevate content that is favourable to the Chinese Communist Party.

scottmcleod 4y ago
This is the biggest issue; they are already controlling the media for large population of young Americans.
vachina 4y ago
I wonder why when China does this it’s always a bad thing. Isn’t the inverse also true i.e. western media influencing and nudging narratives, except that we can actually observe this happening right now. Where do you stand in that case?
- uniqueuid 4y ago
  This one's pretty simple: China is a totalitarian regime that is in direct conflict with western constitutional values. So if influence is aimed at democratic foundations, of course it's a bad thing.
  - mromanuk 4y ago
    Doesn't banning a social network undermine the democratic principles you mention?
    - dd36 4y ago
      Not if it’s a psy op tool of an adversary.
    - uniqueuid 4y ago
      Not in principle. Practically all democratic systems have provisions to defend against subversion of their core principles. Those provisions may be designed to safeguard institutions, processes such as elections and regulate information flow. It's important to remember that the US concept of "free speech" as an absolute right is very untypical, and that it also has limits due to being narrow in its scope. Of course, banning a social network due to arbitrary or without reasons would be against democratic principles. But following democratic and legal principles to openly apply laws and procedures designed to safeguard the state - that's not undermining at all, to the contrary!
      - superfist 4y ago
        Collapse of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in XVIII as form of proto-democracy can be here good case study. It show us how authoritarian systems can exploit democratic system.
    - devilbunny 4y ago
      No. The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
      - uniqueuid 4y ago
        Wow, thanks! I didn't know this phrase [1], but it really nails the concept of self-balance in constitutional democracies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constitution_is_not_a_suicide_pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constitution_is_not_a_suic...
    - TinkersW 4y ago
      I don't see why those principles should apply to a foreign country with malign intentions, they aren't a person nor do they represent a populace given that China is authoritarian. The spying seems secondary to the influence they can wield by pushing certain stories while burying others.
- laputan_machine 4y ago
  China is under the rule of the CCP, an authortarian party to which you cannot challenge. For all democracy's failings, for the mess the US is in, and rise of populist parties in Europe, it is still freedom.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    Does the US public have any genuine, identifiable democratic power over the FBI?
    - dd36 4y ago
      Absolutely. The FBI head must be appointed by the President and approved by the Senate. Oversight is performed by Congress. He can be fired.
      - mistermann 4y ago
        I don't disagree that it is possible in theory, but are there any substantial examples of initiatives genuinely spawned at the general public level changing policy of the FBI? This would be required to upgrade the binary (True/False) proposition from a belief to a fact...but then only as a binary (the FBI could still be 99% beyond the will of the people).
      - sdsd 4y ago
        This is technically true, but I wonder in practice. Like, the King of England absolutely has the power to withhold consent on acts of parliament. How accountable is parliament to the King? But replace the King with Congress, and parliament with the FBI.
  - angio 4y ago
    Ironically, right wing parties in the EU rose thanks to disinformation on american social media. Following this discussion's logic, Facebook and Twitter should have been banned in the EU a long time ago.
    - 4y ago
- mc32 4y ago
  If China were pushing a WEF narrative, everything would be okay. Instead they have their own separate agenda that does not dovetail. Look at it this way, if it were Japan or SKorea, we would not be hearing about this from that PoV. That said, even if it were a purely American company, setting aside tracking and all that, it is not a psychological net-positive. It's manipulative and induces poor choices on some. That some is on this side of too much.
- uniqueuid 4y ago
  For the record, I also think nudging in and of itself is a bad thing and incompatible with democracy. Henry Farrell and Cosma Shalizi have a great essay on that [1]. [1] https://crookedtimber.org/2012/05/23/cognitive-democracy/ https://crookedtimber.org/2012/05/23/cognitive-democracy/
- dclowd9901 4y ago
  I mean, yes, but there’s no communist bogeyman to blame, just our own vanities.
rafale 4y ago
Or to shape what the youth value: science or twerking/vaping.
- lm28469 4y ago
  What is this ? China ? This is a free country, twerking and vaping are valid life plans !!! /s
mc32 4y ago
It would not be that blatant. They look more to add ambiguity and instability. They may be interested in amplifying police brutality in the eyes of users as well as lawlessness and looting simultaneously to sew discord, as an example. Or, spying isn't so bad, the US does it, why shouldn't China, etc.
HlessClaudesman 4y ago
I think their strategy is more insidious than that. Chinese social media inside China is actively directing youth towards vigorous / productive / pedagogical endeavours, whereas ticktock outside China heavily promotes pointless endless innane naval gazing such as pranking, gaming, influencers etc. They seek to create a generation of feckless know nothings in The West.
- mc32 4y ago
  Yep, shore up your own and undermine your enemy. Promote strength, work ethic, and achievement at home and promote idleness, listlessness and parasitic attitudes for the enemy.
- dbsmith83 4y ago
  > Chinese social media inside China is actively directing youth towards vigorous / productive / pedagogical endeavours, whereas ticktock outside China heavily promotes pointless endless innane naval gazing such as pranking, gaming, influencers etc. This would be interesting if true. Do you have any sources for this or is it just an observation?
- nemothekid 4y ago
  It's hard to call this a strategy when the reason TikTok operates the way it does in China is due to regulation. Instagram reels promotes the same garbage, does the CCP direct Meta as well? If you tried to push for the same kind of social media regulation in the US, the internet would shut down in protest.
- PheonixPharts 4y ago
  > social media inside China is actively directing youth towards vigorous / productive / pedagogical I have a fair number of friends/relatives living in China and at least from what I've seen this is a pretty laughable claim. Very curious where you heard this from? TikTok in China is different than the US in that it is increasingly inundated with various "get rich quick" schemes. It's essentially turned into large scale social advertising platform where everyone is trying to pitch some angle to make a quick RBM. I'm sure there exist some "vigorous / productive / pedagogical" accounts, but there are plenty of this in the US as well. There are a lot of accounts in the US that focus on learning, exercise, getting a software job etc. Again, would love to hear your source of this information, especially if it's first hand experience, because based on the people I talk with in mainland China this comment sounds like a very off the mark hot take.
tenebrisalietum 4y ago
TikTok can't do anything worse than domestic advertising/marketing firms already do. The idea that the CCP wants American youth for any purpose that doesn't already align with American businesses--who depend on the slave-labor priced cheap stuff from China to sell to them--is ridiculous.
- dd36 4y ago
  China wants internal conflict that weakens the country or destroys democracy. Social media can be weaponized to do this. Foreign media ownership limits are not novel.
- computerfriend 4y ago
  > TikTok can't do anything worse than domestic advertising/marketing firms already do. Can't it?
dd36 4y ago
Or by radicalizing people to try to destroy democracy.
bdcravens 4y ago
Is there concern that other platforms could do the same thing? Or is biased propaganda acceptable so long as it's American in origin?
zug_zug 4y ago
I mean yes, that's a scary made-up scenario. I'd be in favor of banning the app if that made-up scenario ever becomes a non-made-up scenario.
- Reason077 4y ago
  Sure, but so long as any manipulations are kept subtle, it's hard to prove whether or not they're actually happening.

scottmcleod 4y ago

This is the biggest issue; they are already controlling the media for large population of young Americans.

vachina 4y ago

I wonder why when China does this it’s always a bad thing. Isn’t the inverse also true i.e. western media influencing and nudging narratives, except that we can actually observe this happening right now. Where do you stand in that case?

uniqueuid 4y ago
This one's pretty simple: China is a totalitarian regime that is in direct conflict with western constitutional values. So if influence is aimed at democratic foundations, of course it's a bad thing.
- mromanuk 4y ago
  Doesn't banning a social network undermine the democratic principles you mention?
  - dd36 4y ago
    Not if it’s a psy op tool of an adversary.
  - uniqueuid 4y ago
    Not in principle. Practically all democratic systems have provisions to defend against subversion of their core principles. Those provisions may be designed to safeguard institutions, processes such as elections and regulate information flow. It's important to remember that the US concept of "free speech" as an absolute right is very untypical, and that it also has limits due to being narrow in its scope. Of course, banning a social network due to arbitrary or without reasons would be against democratic principles. But following democratic and legal principles to openly apply laws and procedures designed to safeguard the state - that's not undermining at all, to the contrary!
    - superfist 4y ago
      Collapse of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in XVIII as form of proto-democracy can be here good case study. It show us how authoritarian systems can exploit democratic system.
  - devilbunny 4y ago
    No. The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
    - uniqueuid 4y ago
      Wow, thanks! I didn't know this phrase [1], but it really nails the concept of self-balance in constitutional democracies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constitution_is_not_a_suicide_pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constitution_is_not_a_suic...
  - TinkersW 4y ago
    I don't see why those principles should apply to a foreign country with malign intentions, they aren't a person nor do they represent a populace given that China is authoritarian. The spying seems secondary to the influence they can wield by pushing certain stories while burying others.
laputan_machine 4y ago
China is under the rule of the CCP, an authortarian party to which you cannot challenge. For all democracy's failings, for the mess the US is in, and rise of populist parties in Europe, it is still freedom.
- mistermann 4y ago
  Does the US public have any genuine, identifiable democratic power over the FBI?
  - dd36 4y ago
    Absolutely. The FBI head must be appointed by the President and approved by the Senate. Oversight is performed by Congress. He can be fired.
    - mistermann 4y ago
      I don't disagree that it is possible in theory, but are there any substantial examples of initiatives genuinely spawned at the general public level changing policy of the FBI? This would be required to upgrade the binary (True/False) proposition from a belief to a fact...but then only as a binary (the FBI could still be 99% beyond the will of the people).
    - sdsd 4y ago
      This is technically true, but I wonder in practice. Like, the King of England absolutely has the power to withhold consent on acts of parliament. How accountable is parliament to the King? But replace the King with Congress, and parliament with the FBI.
- angio 4y ago
  Ironically, right wing parties in the EU rose thanks to disinformation on american social media. Following this discussion's logic, Facebook and Twitter should have been banned in the EU a long time ago.
  - 4y ago
mc32 4y ago
If China were pushing a WEF narrative, everything would be okay. Instead they have their own separate agenda that does not dovetail. Look at it this way, if it were Japan or SKorea, we would not be hearing about this from that PoV. That said, even if it were a purely American company, setting aside tracking and all that, it is not a psychological net-positive. It's manipulative and induces poor choices on some. That some is on this side of too much.
uniqueuid 4y ago
For the record, I also think nudging in and of itself is a bad thing and incompatible with democracy. Henry Farrell and Cosma Shalizi have a great essay on that [1]. [1] https://crookedtimber.org/2012/05/23/cognitive-democracy/ https://crookedtimber.org/2012/05/23/cognitive-democracy/
dclowd9901 4y ago
I mean, yes, but there’s no communist bogeyman to blame, just our own vanities.

rafale 4y ago

Or to shape what the youth value: science or twerking/vaping.

lm28469 4y ago
What is this ? China ? This is a free country, twerking and vaping are valid life plans !!! /s

mc32 4y ago

It would not be that blatant. They look more to add ambiguity and instability. They may be interested in amplifying police brutality in the eyes of users as well as lawlessness and looting simultaneously to sew discord, as an example. Or, spying isn't so bad, the US does it, why shouldn't China, etc.

HlessClaudesman 4y ago

I think their strategy is more insidious than that. Chinese social media inside China is actively directing youth towards vigorous / productive / pedagogical endeavours, whereas ticktock outside China heavily promotes pointless endless innane naval gazing such as pranking, gaming, influencers etc. They seek to create a generation of feckless know nothings in The West.

mc32 4y ago
Yep, shore up your own and undermine your enemy. Promote strength, work ethic, and achievement at home and promote idleness, listlessness and parasitic attitudes for the enemy.
dbsmith83 4y ago
> Chinese social media inside China is actively directing youth towards vigorous / productive / pedagogical endeavours, whereas ticktock outside China heavily promotes pointless endless innane naval gazing such as pranking, gaming, influencers etc. This would be interesting if true. Do you have any sources for this or is it just an observation?
nemothekid 4y ago
It's hard to call this a strategy when the reason TikTok operates the way it does in China is due to regulation. Instagram reels promotes the same garbage, does the CCP direct Meta as well? If you tried to push for the same kind of social media regulation in the US, the internet would shut down in protest.
PheonixPharts 4y ago
> social media inside China is actively directing youth towards vigorous / productive / pedagogical I have a fair number of friends/relatives living in China and at least from what I've seen this is a pretty laughable claim. Very curious where you heard this from? TikTok in China is different than the US in that it is increasingly inundated with various "get rich quick" schemes. It's essentially turned into large scale social advertising platform where everyone is trying to pitch some angle to make a quick RBM. I'm sure there exist some "vigorous / productive / pedagogical" accounts, but there are plenty of this in the US as well. There are a lot of accounts in the US that focus on learning, exercise, getting a software job etc. Again, would love to hear your source of this information, especially if it's first hand experience, because based on the people I talk with in mainland China this comment sounds like a very off the mark hot take.

tenebrisalietum 4y ago

TikTok can't do anything worse than domestic advertising/marketing firms already do. The idea that the CCP wants American youth for any purpose that doesn't already align with American businesses--who depend on the slave-labor priced cheap stuff from China to sell to them--is ridiculous.

dd36 4y ago
China wants internal conflict that weakens the country or destroys democracy. Social media can be weaponized to do this. Foreign media ownership limits are not novel.
computerfriend 4y ago
> TikTok can't do anything worse than domestic advertising/marketing firms already do. Can't it?

dd36 4y ago

Or by radicalizing people to try to destroy democracy.

bdcravens 4y ago

Is there concern that other platforms could do the same thing? Or is biased propaganda acceptable so long as it's American in origin?

zug_zug 4y ago

I mean yes, that's a scary made-up scenario. I'd be in favor of banning the app if that made-up scenario ever becomes a non-made-up scenario.

Reason077 4y ago
Sure, but so long as any manipulations are kept subtle, it's hard to prove whether or not they're actually happening.