5 ms·

>I admit to seeing some valuable use-cases Could you write them here? Genuinely curious.

by tokai 4y ago

Frost1x 4y ago
The general concept of having a medium and marketplace of exchange that isn't regulated/controlled has some value. It may have more costs than benefits in the grand scheme of things, though. I tend to support regulation in general, but I also see the value of something that has limited opportunity for opportunists to dig their fingers into and extract from without contributing real value themselves. To be very clear, I'm quite an opponent of cryptocurrency in the the big picture. It could be that taxes become absurd or abusive in some governments or corrupt officials steal or waste their fair share. It may be that some government wants to prevent certain types of exchanges that the rest of society thinks are actually 'OK' and their government no longer reflects their interest. For example, my significant other is filipino and in their culture, many leave the country to work internationally because of limited local opportunity. Part of that culture involves many sending money home regularly to their families. Sending that money has limitations and often goes through currency exchanges and other brokers who collect fees off that money. To my SO and their family, these groups are leeches providing no value. I understand why some of these structures exist (to help reduce money laundering and criminal monetary exchanges, etc.) but most these folks sending money home are doing honest labor and simply trying to support their families abroad but have various middlemen sticking their fingers the pot. Crypto and exchanges could provide a viable route to avoid this and send wealth home with limited interference.
- tokai 4y ago
  But regulation/control has nothing todo with crypto. Its not a technical issue, but social/political. So tax fraud and remittances are left. Both seems like they will make regulation come eventually.
  - ETH_start 4y ago
    It's much harder to regulate and control when there's no centralized gatekeeper that regulators can target. Distributed consensus reduces the power that all centralized entities - whether government or corporate - exert.
  - Frost1x 4y ago
    It has everything to do with crypto. The entire selling point of crypto is decentralization of the medium of exchange. The fact I can exchange a medium, in theory, anonymously and without limitation is what makes crypto appealing. If not, what value does it add?
jgilias 4y ago
Two real life datapoints. 1. A friend of mine has a small software consultancy. He usually works within EUR area. All fine and dandy there. Then there was a client in the US, they agreed on a USD rate for his work. He went to his bank to open a USD account, they did additional AML and KYC procedures and just refused to open a USD account. Didn’t even explain why, he’s not doing anything shady. So, the first USD payment went to his EUR account, and got automatically converted at a very unfriendly exchange rate making him lose non-trivial money on that. Now he accepts USDC and converts on an exchange instead. 2. A different friend has a hardware/software business. A client in an African country found them. The African client wanted to use PayPal, as ‘banks are troublesome’. They didn’t accept PayPal as it can be recalled. So they did the transfer through the banking system which stuck in it due to AML for a month. Because, why are you having a payment from Africa? Are you selling drugs? Are they terrorists? They aren’t using crypto, but it sure would help here.
- hef19898 4y ago
  1. Use paypal or a credit card, your local EURO based bank (or any other EU currency denominated one) will happily exchange the transferred USD into local currencies based on latest exchange rates. 2. Use Western Union.
  - mandmandam 4y ago
    1. PayPal are notorious, for many good reasons. Credit card companies have shown themselves up too; blocking donations to Wikileaks, for example. Then there's the decentralization factor. 2. Seriously? The time and expense of this compared to crypto is huge. Again, decentralization > single point of failure. Being glib about real benefits and use cases is not helping the conversation here.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      PayPal is not needed for charging a credit card, and international bank transfers take a while but don't involve some weird payment provider in between neither. Also, being paid as a consultant is different thing from donations to WikiLeaks. Regarding two: The transaction cost of crypto might be lower, but carries the risk of losing the full payments as soon as some exchange decides to stop withdrawals.

>I admit to seeing some valuable use-cases Could you write them here? Genuinely curious.

by tokai 4y ago

>I admit to seeing some valuable use-cases Could you write them here? Genuinely curious.

The general concept of having a medium and marketplace of exchange that isn't regulated/controlled has some value. It may have more costs than benefits in the grand scheme of things, though. I tend to support regulation in general, but I also see the value of something that has limited opportunity for opportunists to dig their fingers into and extract from without contributing real value themselves. To be very clear, I'm quite an opponent of cryptocurrency in the the big picture. It could be that taxes become absurd or abusive in some governments or corrupt officials steal or waste their fair share. It may be that some government wants to prevent certain types of exchanges that the rest of society thinks are actually 'OK' and their government no longer reflects their interest. For example, my significant other is filipino and in their culture, many leave the country to work internationally because of limited local opportunity. Part of that culture involves many sending money home regularly to their families. Sending that money has limitations and often goes through currency exchanges and other brokers who collect fees off that money. To my SO and their family, these groups are leeches providing no value. I understand why some of these structures exist (to help reduce money laundering and criminal monetary exchanges, etc.) but most these folks sending money home are doing honest labor and simply trying to support their families abroad but have various middlemen sticking their fingers the pot. Crypto and exchanges could provide a viable route to avoid this and send wealth home with limited interference.

tokai 4y ago
But regulation/control has nothing todo with crypto. Its not a technical issue, but social/political. So tax fraud and remittances are left. Both seems like they will make regulation come eventually.
- ETH_start 4y ago
  It's much harder to regulate and control when there's no centralized gatekeeper that regulators can target. Distributed consensus reduces the power that all centralized entities - whether government or corporate - exert.
- Frost1x 4y ago
  It has everything to do with crypto. The entire selling point of crypto is decentralization of the medium of exchange. The fact I can exchange a medium, in theory, anonymously and without limitation is what makes crypto appealing. If not, what value does it add?

jgilias 4y ago

Two real life datapoints. 1. A friend of mine has a small software consultancy. He usually works within EUR area. All fine and dandy there. Then there was a client in the US, they agreed on a USD rate for his work. He went to his bank to open a USD account, they did additional AML and KYC procedures and just refused to open a USD account. Didn’t even explain why, he’s not doing anything shady. So, the first USD payment went to his EUR account, and got automatically converted at a very unfriendly exchange rate making him lose non-trivial money on that. Now he accepts USDC and converts on an exchange instead. 2. A different friend has a hardware/software business. A client in an African country found them. The African client wanted to use PayPal, as ‘banks are troublesome’. They didn’t accept PayPal as it can be recalled. So they did the transfer through the banking system which stuck in it due to AML for a month. Because, why are you having a payment from Africa? Are you selling drugs? Are they terrorists? They aren’t using crypto, but it sure would help here.

hef19898 4y ago
1. Use paypal or a credit card, your local EURO based bank (or any other EU currency denominated one) will happily exchange the transferred USD into local currencies based on latest exchange rates. 2. Use Western Union.
- mandmandam 4y ago
  1. PayPal are notorious, for many good reasons. Credit card companies have shown themselves up too; blocking donations to Wikileaks, for example. Then there's the decentralization factor. 2. Seriously? The time and expense of this compared to crypto is huge. Again, decentralization > single point of failure. Being glib about real benefits and use cases is not helping the conversation here.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    PayPal is not needed for charging a credit card, and international bank transfers take a while but don't involve some weird payment provider in between neither. Also, being paid as a consultant is different thing from donations to WikiLeaks. Regarding two: The transaction cost of crypto might be lower, but carries the risk of losing the full payments as soon as some exchange decides to stop withdrawals.