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How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores
- josephcsible 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bobsmooth 4y agoI mean, alcohol is literally poison and the state of being intoxicated is the desirable effect.
- TheRealPomax 4y agoBut only the state of being intoxicated. No one asks if you binged so much you threw up because otherwise "it didn't count".
- SoftTalker 4y agoYeah I've definitely had friends and been around people like that in my youth. "Party 'til you Puke!!"
- headsoup 4y agoNo, there are many people who will say you're not drinking properly if you haven't passed out, lost memory, spewed, done something stupid, etc. The argument above is exactly the same with the same qualifier that of course not everyone (or even many) hold that attitude.
- 12907835202 4y agoWhen people say that it's meant in jest more than when psychonaughts tell you, you haven't taken enough because you haven't fully broken down your psyche. It's not really comparable.
- headsoup 4y agoIt sounds like you haven't been around those kinds of drinkers then. The kind that will just spike a beer with vodka shots or do sneaky refills to make sure their friend 'experiences' the desired outcome. Very jesty.
- TheRealPomax 4y agoWe're obviously going to ignore Finland here.
- bergenty 4y agoThe closest thing I have to it is doing mushrooms and throwing up makes you feel amazing and the high really kicks in. Granted the initial nausea doesn’t feel good.
- mattigames 4y agoIt's not like people eat spicy stuff that is so strong that literally hurts on its way out.
- willhinsa 4y agoIs chemotherapy Stockholm syndrome? Sometimes the medicine has to be pretty bad to fight off something worse!
- quickthrower2 4y agoWhat disease is ayahuasca fighting off? And specifically what is the the clinical benefit of the vomit stage?
- elevaet 4y agoBy that token, what specifically is the clinical benefit to the vomit stage of chemo? The argument is that the vomiting is a necessary step of this powerful medicine, and that the medicine is curing mental disease. I'm not defending ayahuasca, I actually do think it's a sketchy corner of the psychedelic world to be trodden on very carefully, if at all. Just trying to supply the perspective.
- aosmith 4y agoThere's no benefit to puking you guts, it's a side effect. Chemo is basically poison.
- quickthrower2 4y agoChemo: you might vomit, if you do it is expected, if you don't that is OK you still got the treatment. Ayahuasca (to some people): wot you didn't vomit? if you didn't vomit, it never happened.
- pmoriarty 4y ago"What disease is ayahuasca fighting off? And specifically what is the the clinical benefit of the vomit stage?" I have heard people describe ayahuasca purging as getting rid of mental and/or physical toxins... as getting rid of depression, emotional/psychological baggage, medical maladies, etc..
- aosmith 4y agoNo chemo is a last chance kinda thing. Nobody chooses to have chemo, it's just the only tool left in the box.
- jimmux 4y agoFrom my own experience, I have done it with and without the purge. It did feel like it accelerated the process, but not so much that it made a difference overall. I have heard people claim that if you don't purge it doesn't count. It's the first thing they ask about another person's experience. That always felt a bit like Stockholm syndrome to me.
- aurelianito 4y agoPlease unflag the grand parent. Even thou I do not agree with what it says, I think it is interesting to have the discussion.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- canadianfella 4y ago
- aurelianito 4y agoI find it sad that this post was flagged. If it is not found interesting by the community no one would upvote it and it would just fade away. Flagging posts like this one makes hacker news far less interesting.
- whalesalad 4y agoI’ve been surprised recently by the friction to psychedelics within the community.
- dang 4y agoIt wasn't flagged. What made you think it was?
- ipnon 4y ago2.3% requiring medical attention is surprisingly high. This seems orders of magnitude higher than classic psychedelics. It is likely this is greater than simply combining DMT and an MAOI.
- yieldcrv 4y agoIts probably as simple as saying certain people shouldn't take it fast talking man at end of commercial: “dont take if you’re bipolar/schizo/pregnant/have suicidal ideations or if anyone in your family has had this either” tada!
- asveikau 4y agoThere are a lot of people walking around with bipolar who don't know they have it. Among others reasons, this can happen because they will not seek treatment for hypomania (a good mood) and maybe not connect the dots in their behavior patterns. A bad chemical experience could tip them over the edge. This happened to someone close to me.
- lend000 4y agoMAOI's on their own can be dangerous depending on your diet -- I wouldn't be surprised by a 2.3% number representing people who consumed a lot of tyramine beforehand, despite the fact that you are supposed to fast.
- ycombinete 4y agoI’m not rolling that d40!
- alexvoda 4y agoAbout that, there are stories about what happens when you crit fail that d40 and for various levels of succeed or fail. But I never heard a story about someone rolling a crit succeed.
- quechimba 4y agoThat sounds like a lot. My brother is running an ayahuasca retreat in Peru and the only time someone needed medical attention was because they had an allergic reaction to peanuts...
- Trasmatta 4y agoBad trips are a real risk with all psychedelics. I don't like the attitude in psychedelic communities that there's "no such thing as a bad trip, only a challenging one". I had a couple bad trips. It felt like living in hell for a literal eternity. It's almost impossible to describe the agony that the human mind is capable of experiencing. It's absurd how much suffering the human mind can experience. The main message I got out of those experiences was that everything I learned in hell could have been learned in other, safer, ways.
- cyode 4y agoI’m sorry you experienced that. Do you feel like it left any lasting effects?
- Trasmatta 4y agoIt's been almost 3 years, and there's still some remaining effects. Doing a lot better though! Therapy has helped.
- yieldcrv 4y agoAgreed, there is a lot of victim blaming and invalidation in the psychedelic community that is oddly paradoxical. “that experience doesn’t count! that person should have known they have, or their family has, a history of schizophrenia!” “that experience also doesn’t count, you should have known to use it in a familiar place around people you are comfortable with!” I dislike how legalization crowds often come up with absurd arguments just to make their “side” look harmless, as opposed to “hey, we really need to research this to isolate its redeeming benefits if any, in reproducible peer reviewed studies where side effects are more than anecdotes”
- tremarley 4y agoWe can get bad trips with any type of drug. Even weed and alchohol. It can be so bad that we never want to try it again. It's all apart of the journey and the experiment. I've had a couple bad trips, and I'm glad I had them. They created clear fear, paranoia and terror that I'll always remember. It caused me to appreciate the 'real' world a lot more.
- QuantumYeti 4y agoI wonder how common it is for people taking SSRI medications to drink ayahuasca, unaware that SSRIs and MAOIs are a bad combo.
- david927 4y ago> Several factors were more likely to be associated with adverse events occurring, including: A higher use of ayahuasca in the previous year or lifetime But how do you know if you've used it in a previous lifetime, without first trying it?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- no_butterscotch 4y agoIs it similar to "shrooms"? I was considered traveling from San Francisco to Oregon or Colorado (?) where I think psychedelic mushrooms were legalized and you don't need to "know people" to get them. I've wanted to try psychedelics for a while, I haven't done them before. Unless Salvia counts.
- psychstudio 4y agoThere are bound to be wild psychoactive mushrooms near you. Do some research and then do some bushwalking (or hiking if you prefer). Mushroom hunting is cathartic. https://www.shroomery.org/8461/Which-psilocybin-mushrooms-grow-wild-in-my-area https://www.shroomery.org/8461/Which-psilocybin-mushrooms-gr...
- RugnirViking 4y agonever taken mushrooms but been mushroom foraging for food purposes and well, it has to be said: be very, very careful with this stuff. Pick the wrong mushroom and it can and will kill you, and it may be very, very difficult to distinguish the right one and the wrong one. Do things like spore prints, and read books carefully with every specimen. Don't want folks getting hurt
- pmoriarty 4y agoI can strongly recommend Alan Rockefeller's fantastic talks on psilocybin mushroom identification: [1] [2] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcL-7u80kjs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcL-7u80kjs [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pInqVRRva7M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pInqVRRva7M
- boppo1 4y agoThis is a good way to maim or kill yourself.
- aosmith 4y agoJust buy spores, they are legal.
- josh2600 4y agoI have friends who have done both Ayahuasca and DMT. Ayahuasca seems to be much longer acting and more intense when administered correctly (but a lot of it seems to be set and setting). DMT has two variants, the n-n and the 5-meo. Friends report the n-n to be much more visual and the 5-Meo to be more physical. 5-Meo has been known to cause seizures at high doses. I think both of these compounds raise your blood pressure a lot. That’s not good for a lot of existing conditions.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago5-meo-DMT is indeed a tryptamine, and related to "DMT" (n-n-DMT, the DMT everyone means when they say DMT). But it's no more a "variant of DMT" than Psilocin (4-HO-DMT), or more exotic ones like 4-ACO-DMT
- prox 4y agoPeople I know who have done Ayahuasca seem to me have had adverse effects on their mental health. Not the one timers, but going regularly. It’s subtle, but it seems to me they got worse regulating their emotions and rationality. Unfortunately this study is based on respondents so unlikely to uncover such a pattern.
- andrei_says_ 4y agoSet, setting, and the presence of a maestro. Sounds like fiction but there are lineages and training for working with the plants, and people capable of directing other people’s processes and experiences - in a repeatable manner, with awareness of others’ concrete experiences. Taking the tea in the absence of this is a completely different experience. Having a capable maestro in the room is like having a doctor in the ER - vs having only the patients getting high on whatever they find.
- vga805 4y agoAyahuasca ceremonies are among the most profound, cherished experiences of my life. I prepare for months before partaking in them to make sure my emotional, physical, and spiritual health is in a good place. And I can't imagine taking this drug without being under the care of experienced guides. I also wouldn't recommend it for anyone except those who really desire to push the limits of their mind. Some trips have felt like mystical, blissful experiences. Others have felt like an eternity in hell. You never know what you're going to get and you have to be ready for it. Another aspect of this for mental health is that it is possible to experience the common "machine elves" that people encounter. I am as skeptical as it gets but I'm really not sure if I've encountered beings from some other dimension or if my own mind is capable of the weird, sometimes horrifying, always profound shit that I've seen. The first Ayahuasca trip I went on I immediately had intense hallucinations of the feminine spirits. They put out their hands and invited me to walk with them. As we were walking down some kind of hall I reminded myself that these beings were easily a creation of my mind, that we do this kind of thing all the time in our sleep. As I was entertaining this thought one of them violently turned around and yelled "NO". The other being, in a sad voice I'll never forget, asked me why I felt the need to reduce and explain away the experience. I think about this often.
- goldenchrome 4y agoI’ve had similar experiences on large doses of mush. I think it’s in your head, but it’s something that your subconscious self really wanted your conscious self to acknowledge. For you, perhaps you are in the habit of “rationalizing” away profound experiences which serves to protect you from being overwhelmed by life. But sometimes you need to be swept away by life and give in to your senses. There’s truth in our subconscious reactions, truth beyond what our conscious selves can reason about. I believe psychedelics make it easier to become religious, because they teach you how to have faith in a higher power than your conscious self. I now have a deeper trust in the universe, which is another word for God, which is another word for my subconscious.
- soco 4y agoPsychedelics also give the experience of something very unusual, if not extraordinary, which also pushes people towards religion. Because humans have this habit of labeling everything they don't understand as "magic", just everything. Come on humans, really???
- DoreenMichele 4y agoAs someone who has thrown up a lot over the years and has a love-hate relationship with vomiting -- because sometimes it alleviates some of my symptoms -- I would be interested in hearing more about the experience of vomiting in reaction to taking this and why people apparently seek out the experience of vomiting.
- andrei_says_ 4y agoGetting nauseous often happens in association with a recollection / reliving of something, or in relationship to the sluggishness / cotton-numbness of depressive states or negative ideation. After purging - immediate relief, clarity, shift of thinking process, vitality, presence. Not sure about “seeking” it though - it’s mostly spontaneous. You get sick and purge.
- xs83 4y agoI vomited so hard that I gave myself 2 black eyes and burst a blood vessel in my eye so it went completely red. I literally thought I was going to spew up a kidney. Its called La Purga for a reason though, prior to vomiting, because you are starting to trip, you get into a negative thought spiral, this builds and builds and you feel vile. Then all of a sudden - blam. Kidney coming through your nose level spew.... along with all of the negative thoughts. Despite feeling like my eyes had popped out - I started doing cartwheels - I felt so light. Worth experiencing once - better ways to do it than Ayahuasca though after that IMO
- nikisweeting 4y agoI have the same approach. I think given how many smart, rational people I know say there is something to purging I'm inclined to try it once, but once I have that experience I think I'm likely to revert to thinking it's stockholm syndrome for long-term exploration / future trips.
- boppo1 4y agoI have not taken ayahuasca, but have vomited on acid. I believe your latter conclusion is correct. Psychedelics are overrated by those who take them.
- koonsolo 4y agoI always find it surprising that so many people here have such a positive attitude towards drugs. I never touched it, am very happy about it, and hope my kids stay far away from it. I know people who did all kinds of drugs, and nothing positive ever came out of that. Sorry that's just my opinion.
- nikisweeting 4y agoMeet more people.
- saiya-jin 4y agoWow, you must be one of those few in western society that never touched alcohol, never smoked a cigarette and never consumed sugars! Not that its something to marvel at, but for sure you are a curiosity, just like your kids will be in society. On a more serious note, some drugs do much more good than harm. Some psychedelics have extremely good results when treating hard psychiatric patients with conditions our modern medicine has absolutely 0 cure for. I mean way beyond anything current pharma industry can produce, much less side effects. Its abhorrent and primitive medieval mindset to ban such treatments to those whose lives are completely destroyed by their conditions, just because you were brought up in some primitive society that scaremongered you/your parents into clear falsehoods and lies (ie nixon ban on drugs when demonizing hippies and Mexican immigrants in 60s, which through mandatory UN charts was pushed to the rest of the world even to places like India, where cannabis is a sacred plant of god Shiva).
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- koonsolo 4y agoI' not a psychiatric patient, and neither are my kids, so I don't see what drugs could do for me. I'm 43 and never had a cigarette in my mouth, and very happy that I don't have to sit in that disgusting smell in cafes anymore. Do I drink alcohol? Yes. Would I mind if my kids don't drink alcohol? No. I saw alcohol destroy families. And your statement that somehow I and my kids would be curiosities in society just because we stay away from that shit makes you look really stupid.
- comfypotato 4y agoThis article doesn’t give the relevant attention to risks of more serious, long term, psychiatric conditions. Responsible use is key. DMT and other common psychedelics have been linked to emerging schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. [1]. The link is particularly strong when “large-dose trips” are taken in quick succession or generally without weeks/months in between. I personally broke my brain with irresponsible use of psychedelics. Fortunately modern medication enables me to live a normal life, but I can’t help but feel that this study should be mentioning these risks. It’s important to understand responsible patterns of use: mostly spacing out your large-dose trips with 3 months in between each. A history of these mental illnesses in your family is also a strong indication to stay away from these drugs (psychedelics). 1. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881115596156 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881115596156
- pmoriarty 4y ago
- __turbobrew__ 4y agoA close family member of mine became a schizophrenic after doing hallucinogens. Last time I looked at some research it is suggested that hallucinogens can “activate” dormant mental illnesses.
- comfypotato 4y agoThat’s exactly the risk I’m pointing too. Ignoramuses in the medical community will occasionally go as far as to say “take these warnings with a grain of salt” trying to deem them coincidences. Any seasoned hippy (and many young people who frequent festivals and/or are experienced with the scene) will tell you to be careful. As the source I linked indicates, there is hard evidence behind the seasoned-hippy-wisdom. Most research these days is focused on the benefits of these drugs (and rightfully so; it’s promising research). That being said, there are risks associated with their use that are very different (and potentially more serious) than something like cannabis or alcohol.
- hutzlibu 4y agoDrug induced trips are safe the way a mountain trip is safe. Meaning, if you know the mountain and your skills well and are prepared (or have a good guide leading the way and the preparations), it will likely be a great experience. But not necessarily a "nice" experience and even seasoned climbers have gone missing on a bad day. So framing any drug trips as safe, like the current hype does way too much, is of course dangerous and missleading. I do recommend both, though, but you have to be prepared and you have to be in good condition.
- manzu 4y agoThe whole of how we experience reality is made up by our mind. Decisions and actions are sort of precognitions - rather than being reactions to stimuli, they’re actions with expected results, adjusted very fast after we get feedback. Probably sharing some wiring, most of us agree on the same stuff. But there are outliers. If the mind can create reality and all the worlds we can imagine awake, then certainly in an altered state it can create other experiences. What’s real? Anything or nothing, maybe everything in between.
- threads2 4y agoI think I read something like this in a Schopenhauer book on Free Will: if you admit of a precognition (or subconscious) can't you, by the same reasoning, say that the subconscious has a sub-subconscious, etc?
- ramazanpolat 4y agoAyahuasca changed my life. But it is not for everyone! Especially if you are using SSRI drugs or if you have heart conditions. Shamans will ensure you if you are eligible to use it. Other than that, *every adult should use at least once in their lifetime*. Watch "The War on Consciousness" from Graham Hankook for better understanding of it.