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To add some context: the Librem 5 project started with a crowdfunding campaign at the end of 2017. The initial projected release date was early 2019, but the pr

To add some context: the Librem 5 project started with a crowdfunding campaign at the end of 2017. The initial projected release date was early 2019, but the project caught delays and eventually started shipping preorders in quantity in late 2020 (early revisions started shipping to backers who opted in for those at the turn of 2019/2020 already). At this point, however, the world was well into component shortage, which ended up severely impacting the production. Right now the shipping queue is at the preorders from early 2019 (with some thousands of phones already shipped) and is expected to reach the present somewhere in the first half of 2023. The product is certainly "built yet", it's just shipping slower than anticipated and, in turn, still has a queue of preorders from years ago to fulfill (I believe the most dense preorder periods have been handled by now though). Disclosure: I work for Purism as a software dev.

monopoliessuck 4y ago
Hey I remember that crowdfunding campaign! If the shipping queue is at 2019, why is my refund for an order from 2017 not processed? First you guys said it was because I had to wait until my batch was going to ship. I waited. Now no who knows and no one will talk to me beyond saying "maybe soon?" and throwing their arms up. I'm a FOSS advocate and loved the idea of the Librem and even the idea of paying more for an ethical device, but this all leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and I'm not alone. Any info would be appreciated. The email volleyball doesn't ever yield any new information month to month to month...
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  I don't know much about how refunds are handled, sorry. As far as I'm aware, the crowdfunder preorders were never supposed to be refundable (as that kinda defeats the idea of crowdfunded development); the refund policy in the shop was meant to apply for regular sales of things that were already available to buy there, which were just laptops and accessories at that time. I know that some refunds are being issued anyway, with the caveat that you have to wait for your phone to be ready to ship (otherwise the company would have to effectively cover for your withdrawal, as the components and production are already financed with that money). That's all I know.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    That’s what people are compliant about. It is increasingly clear that this is the hardware equivalent of a Ponzi scheme I’m sure it didn’t start that way, But as time goes on an on it’s harer to say it’s false.
  - monopoliessuck 4y ago
    The funny thing is no one seems to know how refunds are handled, even within the organization. Talking to customer service is like talking to a guy that bought a Purism shirt and kind of knows the guys that handle the "queue" somewhere out there in the nether. Everyone I speak to at the company has no idea when I'll get it, but they're certain I will... eventually. Apparently I'm on the fast track too and have been for years, which is swell. The irony of all this is I selected the latest Evergreen batch when I funded because I didn't mind waiting. When Purism flirted with the idea of a new model after Evergreen I even inquired about moving my funds there so I'd get peak Librem - I really didn't mind waiting. When deadlines got missed the third or fourth time I got worried. Then Purism started releasing a few phones to influencers and internal people only and claimed "shipping" I got more worried. I think the only "real" shipping batch was Evergreen ultimately anyway, but when some a few normal customers began explaining they got phones and they were overheating I got more worried. More time passed and the prices started rising to insane levels, transparency had fallen away completely and I still hadn't received my phone I just decided to cut bait. I asked for a refund and was told I would have to wait so wait I did. > the crowdfunder preorders were never supposed to be refundable Purism's crowdfunding wasn't traditional crowdfunding. The company exists with other, supposedly profitable, lines. The crowdfunders were supposed to get their devices before Purism started promising Librem USA to new customers. If you have a backlog, you clear the backlog before accepting, promising and shipping new devices to new customers. You don't just sit on the money and hand out IOUs. Here[0] is the policy in 2020 regarding the crowdfunding campaign refunds. > If you want to cancel an order for products that are in the process of crowdfunding or pre-order, we will issue a full refund once the crowdfunding/pre-order of the product is completed and all pre-orders are shipped. This is now missing from Purism's policies. That's after I was told I would have to wait for my line in the queue. You're telling me the backlog up to 2019 is clear so I assume all "pre-orders" are shipped and I'm still handed promises. Since the queue is something mythical and no one, even Purism themselves, can tell me where I am in it, I'm left holding the bag. This is not how you run an "ethical company". tldr; It's almost 2023 and I do not have either the phone I ordered in 2017 or the refund I filed for years later after a litany of missed deadlines, promises and communications failures. [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20201127113603/https://puri.sm/policies/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201127113603/https://puri.sm/p...
pessimizer 4y ago
> The product is certainly "built yet", it's just shipping slower than anticipated You're not saying that all of the phones are manufactured, and the only problem is getting them to the post office. That would be "built yet." What's being done is fairly common, but what it also means is that the crowdfunding has never stopped. People are commissioning phones to be manufactured, not buying phones. There's no advantage in talking around that except to make it look suspicious. "Shipping slower" is using "shipping" as a euphemism for "being built."
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  What I wanted to stress out is that the fundraiser was not just about manufacturing, but also whole development. There was no product to manufacture back in 2017 at the time of crowdfunding, the first spec drafts even listed a SoC that was a few generations behind the one actually used. It has been developed ("built") now and is already in hands of significant chunk of customers, but its shipment overall has been bottlenecked by slow manufacturing.

monopoliessuck 4y ago

Hey I remember that crowdfunding campaign! If the shipping queue is at 2019, why is my refund for an order from 2017 not processed? First you guys said it was because I had to wait until my batch was going to ship. I waited. Now no who knows and no one will talk to me beyond saying "maybe soon?" and throwing their arms up. I'm a FOSS advocate and loved the idea of the Librem and even the idea of paying more for an ethical device, but this all leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and I'm not alone. Any info would be appreciated. The email volleyball doesn't ever yield any new information month to month to month...

seba_dos1 4y ago
I don't know much about how refunds are handled, sorry. As far as I'm aware, the crowdfunder preorders were never supposed to be refundable (as that kinda defeats the idea of crowdfunded development); the refund policy in the shop was meant to apply for regular sales of things that were already available to buy there, which were just laptops and accessories at that time. I know that some refunds are being issued anyway, with the caveat that you have to wait for your phone to be ready to ship (otherwise the company would have to effectively cover for your withdrawal, as the components and production are already financed with that money). That's all I know.
- TylerE 4y ago
  That’s what people are compliant about. It is increasingly clear that this is the hardware equivalent of a Ponzi scheme I’m sure it didn’t start that way, But as time goes on an on it’s harer to say it’s false.
- monopoliessuck 4y ago
  The funny thing is no one seems to know how refunds are handled, even within the organization. Talking to customer service is like talking to a guy that bought a Purism shirt and kind of knows the guys that handle the "queue" somewhere out there in the nether. Everyone I speak to at the company has no idea when I'll get it, but they're certain I will... eventually. Apparently I'm on the fast track too and have been for years, which is swell. The irony of all this is I selected the latest Evergreen batch when I funded because I didn't mind waiting. When Purism flirted with the idea of a new model after Evergreen I even inquired about moving my funds there so I'd get peak Librem - I really didn't mind waiting. When deadlines got missed the third or fourth time I got worried. Then Purism started releasing a few phones to influencers and internal people only and claimed "shipping" I got more worried. I think the only "real" shipping batch was Evergreen ultimately anyway, but when some a few normal customers began explaining they got phones and they were overheating I got more worried. More time passed and the prices started rising to insane levels, transparency had fallen away completely and I still hadn't received my phone I just decided to cut bait. I asked for a refund and was told I would have to wait so wait I did. > the crowdfunder preorders were never supposed to be refundable Purism's crowdfunding wasn't traditional crowdfunding. The company exists with other, supposedly profitable, lines. The crowdfunders were supposed to get their devices before Purism started promising Librem USA to new customers. If you have a backlog, you clear the backlog before accepting, promising and shipping new devices to new customers. You don't just sit on the money and hand out IOUs. Here[0] is the policy in 2020 regarding the crowdfunding campaign refunds. > If you want to cancel an order for products that are in the process of crowdfunding or pre-order, we will issue a full refund once the crowdfunding/pre-order of the product is completed and all pre-orders are shipped. This is now missing from Purism's policies. That's after I was told I would have to wait for my line in the queue. You're telling me the backlog up to 2019 is clear so I assume all "pre-orders" are shipped and I'm still handed promises. Since the queue is something mythical and no one, even Purism themselves, can tell me where I am in it, I'm left holding the bag. This is not how you run an "ethical company". tldr; It's almost 2023 and I do not have either the phone I ordered in 2017 or the refund I filed for years later after a litany of missed deadlines, promises and communications failures. [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20201127113603/https://puri.sm/policies/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201127113603/https://puri.sm/p...

pessimizer 4y ago

> The product is certainly "built yet", it's just shipping slower than anticipated You're not saying that all of the phones are manufactured, and the only problem is getting them to the post office. That would be "built yet." What's being done is fairly common, but what it also means is that the crowdfunding has never stopped. People are commissioning phones to be manufactured, not buying phones. There's no advantage in talking around that except to make it look suspicious. "Shipping slower" is using "shipping" as a euphemism for "being built."

seba_dos1 4y ago
What I wanted to stress out is that the fundraiser was not just about manufacturing, but also whole development. There was no product to manufacture back in 2017 at the time of crowdfunding, the first spec drafts even listed a SoC that was a few generations behind the one actually used. It has been developed ("built") now and is already in hands of significant chunk of customers, but its shipment overall has been bottlenecked by slow manufacturing.