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There's a lot of Linux apologists in your replies but my experience is exactly the same _with a laptop that supports Linux_ (Framework laptop). I'm running a v

There's a lot of Linux apologists in your replies but my experience is exactly the same _with a laptop that supports Linux_ (Framework laptop). I'm running a very recent kernel in Fedora and have tried numerous power saving mechanisms (currently autocpufreq, although it's results are not much different from gnome PPD) and I'm lucky if I get 3 hours from the thing while running 10-15 FF tabs and a single instance of VSCode+Remote SSH extension. This is ~1/2 of what I can get in Windows. I think a lot of Linux users would be surpised how good their battery life would be if they installed Windows on their laptops. It's not Linux's fault per se, it's just that there's considerably less engineering manpower going into tuning the power efficiency of laptop hardware on Linux. People get up in arms because they can't reconcile the fact that "Windows is bloated" with the fact that it gets better battery life, but if you think about it for a few seconds it really shouldn't surprise anyone.

trelane 4y ago
I'm not convinced Framework actually supports Linux, though. AFAICT, it supports Windows and can ship with no OS, and you have to do the rest yourself. To predictable end (e.g. having to deal with kernel parameters to make it work.) The firmware involved is also distinctly non-trivial.
- bogwog 4y ago
  That's actually one of the big reasons I've held off on buying one (although the #1 reason is lack of AMD options), and am eyeing laptops from HP and Lenovo that actually advertise full Linux support (like the HP Dev One). Even if those laptops don't support Linux as well as they claim to, it seems like it'd be less of a headache to deal with than Framework with their unique dongle situation.
  - slaw 4y ago
    HP Dev One hits all checkboxes except it has very glossy screen.
    - zwaps 4y ago
      Only available in the USA sadly
mrguyorama 4y ago
>It's not Linux's fault per se It IS linux's fault, in the way that whenever someone new comes into the ecosystem and says "hey this important thing doesn't work well or is broken for me" and get accosted from all directions by crazy people who haven't touched mac or windows in 20 years who insist that what you describe isn't possible, linux is super easy to fix yourself (lol), and that ideas from computing in the 60s are unambiguously the best ideas ever made in computing. The linux ecosystem doesn't even have a legitimate window manager. When people tell the linux world "hey there's an issue" the linux world always responds with "fuck off"
- shapefrog 4y ago
  > linux is super easy to fix yourself You just have to recompile the kernal.
- tmathmeyer 4y ago
- nextos 4y ago
  I think Linux is not less efficient than other major OSes. I am able to squeeze 5% more battery from a MacBook Air 11'' Late 2012 using Linux vs macOS. This is possible because the machine is basically a pure Intel device, so in-kernel support for most hardware components is good. The key aspect is to implement fairly aggressive udev rules and to use no desktop environment, so that the CPU stays in powersaving states for as long as possible. This is where Linux really shines, as X plus a window manager is much lighter than anything else. There is still some room for improvement with a custom kernel, a custom Firefox build or a better wireless card, the only non-Intel component. Broadcom Linux drivers are awful. Also Safari is a marvel in terms of efficiency.
  - XorNot 4y ago
    > and to use no desktop environment, Why do people write comments like this as though it's reasonable way to use an everyday driver PC? "I don't use a DE" - well then yes, obviously but you've also removed like 80% of the functionality to turn the thing into a dumb console. That's not what I want to use a computer for.
formerly_proven 4y ago
Uh, I wouldn't consider that to be "supporting Linux" then. On a laptop - which isn't marketed as supporting anything other than Windows 11 - that has similar (but higher spec) hardware than the 12th gen framework I see anywhere between 8 to 20+ hours of battery life, greatly depending on load - largely equivalent to what it does running Windows. The framework laptop would also seem to suffer from using user-replaceable DDR4 instead of, say, LPDDR5 like 12th gen compatriots generally do (higher performance, less power).
aussiesnack 4y ago
I'm another f/t Fedora user. I've been using Linux on dozens of laptops for over 2 decades. Not once in my experience has Linux got the same battery life as Windows on the same machine, regardless of tweaks. I did have about 5 years on MacOS, and that was the best of all, but that was different hardware of course. Linux just is worse on battery than any of the other mainstream OSs in my experience, though the margin has reduced over time. It's still my platform of choice (because even now, in 2022, the choices available are crap), but denial makes them disappear only from the imagination, not reality.
prima-facie 4y ago
That's probably because of BDProcHot throttling shenanigans on Windows. It's no use having 9hrs battery life if your CPU runs at 800Mhz.
- lightedman 4y ago
  "It's no use having 9hrs battery life if your CPU runs at 800Mhz." 800MHz would be more than enough processing power for most things I do. Just about virtually everything we do now, we were doing when 400MHz Celerons existed. Nobody does efficient coding any longer.
- derkades 4y ago
  I have purposely configured my laptop with a maximum cpu performance target of 30% when on battery. No more fan noise, much longer battery life, performance difference is barely noticable (except in tasks like gaming and video transcoding which I don't do on battery)
TylerE 4y ago
Wow that’s horrible. I’ve got a 7 year old MacBook with a battery that needs servicing and I can still get nearly 3 hours out of that, and that’s running IntelliJ
cbsmith 4y ago
Framework's Linux support is very... DYI. I would say it's a long step away from a laptop designed for Linux (the new Chromebook offering being the exception that proves the rule). > It's not Linux's fault per se, it's just that there's considerably less engineering manpower going into tuning the power efficiency of laptop hardware on Linux. You're not wrong, but it's worse than that. A lot of the power management is tied in to proprietary firmware. Then there's the whole Intel Gen12 debacle... I would argue that Chromebooks are pretty solid proof that it isn't Linux's fault, because they by and large Linux systems that get fantastic power management results. > People get up in arms because they can't reconcile the fact that "Windows is bloated" with the fact that it gets better battery life, but if you think about it for a few seconds it really shouldn't surprise anyone. Windows gets better battery life on laptops designed for better battery life with Windows. At the same time, it is often surprising how running a program under WINE on Linux will outperform the same program running on Windows. ;-)
- cbsmith 4y ago
  > I would argue that Chromebooks are pretty solid proof that it isn't Linux's fault, because they by and large Linux systems that get fantastic power management results. Sorry, that should read: "I would argue that Chromebooks are pretty solid proof that it isn't Linux's fault, because they are Linux systems that by and large get fantastic power management results.
andrepd 4y ago
n=1. Want another n=1? I have up to 9h on Linux but never more than 5h on Windows.
RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
I'm very disappointed in my Framework/PopOS! Ships with Linux, some good marketing. I think PopOS! has lost the thread on why they exist, in that it started as an 'it just works' version of linux, and it seems to be managed as yet another enthusiast grade linux. It doesn't take much time over at r/popos to see this sentiment spelled out. I'm not leaving the linux ecosystem, but I can tell you i'd be shocked if I go with either Framework again. Majorly disappointed for what should have been a top tier system when I bought it. I'm on the fence about PopOS. I need an OS that works out of the gate and doesn't break things like audio and bluetooth down the road (both of which are borked in the current version). Idk. Hard time to be committed to FOSS, but the options aren't better.
- slaw 4y ago
  I don't see option to order Framework laptop with PopOS! If you install OS yourself, it is not officially supported.
linuxhansl 4y ago
My experience is exactly the opposite. If that make me a "Linux apologist" I don't really care. Install TLP, uninstall thermald, and make sure turbo mode is off (it's on by default in Linux - probably applies to Intel only). Under light load the system is using 6-8w (about 9-10h of usage on the 80WH battery), under 4w when completely idle. This is latest Fedora on a ThinkPad X1 Extreme with KDE. I want to see that with Windows. You have to invest a bit more time with Linux (for example the fingerprint reader on my Laptop prevented the CPU from going into lower power modes), and that part is unfortunate. On the other hand I never experience things randomly not working like it was with Windows. Your mileage may vary.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >Install TLP, uninstall thermald, and make sure turbo mode is off (it's on by default in Linux - probably applies to Intel only). Sorry, but that's not a good argument in favor of Linux when basic power management is not part of the OS and you need to set it up yourself manually. Can you imagine Microsoft or Apple shipping their OSs without power management? I need an OS to work out of the box so I can get to work/entertainment, not a hobby to tinker with. I still enjoy tinkering with Linux but it should be only when I want-to, not a need-to. > I want to see that with Windows. Yeah, you can get Linux to be more economical than Windows by manually installing a bunch of tools that throttle down the CPU into its lowest power mode and running it at 600MHz fixed all the time, and now you have a laptop that's super slow, all for the sake of battery life and winning online arguments. Good job. /s You can force that in Windows as well, but why would you? I want to see Linux automatically scale the CPU power and frequency based on the load put on it like Windows does: idles at 600MHz when doing nothing, click on the Firefox tab and it shoots up to 3,6GHz, then back down to 800MHz. That's what any sane OS should do out of the box, not have you install and fiddle with a bunch of tools and maybe still not be as good. >On the other hand I never experience things randomly not working like it was with Windows. I have way more things randomly not working on Ubuntu 22.04 Gnome at work than on Windows 11 at home (none actually on this one). And I'm saying this an Linux/FOSS user and fan.
  - _piif 4y ago
slaw 4y ago
Framework laptop doesn't have option to buy with Linux, there is only an option to buy without Windows. For me that is not what officall support is. I had Motile M141 laptop with Ryzen 3200U and it had better battery life on Linux than Windows.

trelane 4y ago

I'm not convinced Framework actually supports Linux, though. AFAICT, it supports Windows and can ship with no OS, and you have to do the rest yourself. To predictable end (e.g. having to deal with kernel parameters to make it work.) The firmware involved is also distinctly non-trivial.

bogwog 4y ago
That's actually one of the big reasons I've held off on buying one (although the #1 reason is lack of AMD options), and am eyeing laptops from HP and Lenovo that actually advertise full Linux support (like the HP Dev One). Even if those laptops don't support Linux as well as they claim to, it seems like it'd be less of a headache to deal with than Framework with their unique dongle situation.
- slaw 4y ago
  HP Dev One hits all checkboxes except it has very glossy screen.
  - zwaps 4y ago
    Only available in the USA sadly

mrguyorama 4y ago

>It's not Linux's fault per se It IS linux's fault, in the way that whenever someone new comes into the ecosystem and says "hey this important thing doesn't work well or is broken for me" and get accosted from all directions by crazy people who haven't touched mac or windows in 20 years who insist that what you describe isn't possible, linux is super easy to fix yourself (lol), and that ideas from computing in the 60s are unambiguously the best ideas ever made in computing. The linux ecosystem doesn't even have a legitimate window manager. When people tell the linux world "hey there's an issue" the linux world always responds with "fuck off"

shapefrog 4y ago
> linux is super easy to fix yourself You just have to recompile the kernal.
tmathmeyer 4y ago
nextos 4y ago
I think Linux is not less efficient than other major OSes. I am able to squeeze 5% more battery from a MacBook Air 11'' Late 2012 using Linux vs macOS. This is possible because the machine is basically a pure Intel device, so in-kernel support for most hardware components is good. The key aspect is to implement fairly aggressive udev rules and to use no desktop environment, so that the CPU stays in powersaving states for as long as possible. This is where Linux really shines, as X plus a window manager is much lighter than anything else. There is still some room for improvement with a custom kernel, a custom Firefox build or a better wireless card, the only non-Intel component. Broadcom Linux drivers are awful. Also Safari is a marvel in terms of efficiency.
- XorNot 4y ago
  > and to use no desktop environment, Why do people write comments like this as though it's reasonable way to use an everyday driver PC? "I don't use a DE" - well then yes, obviously but you've also removed like 80% of the functionality to turn the thing into a dumb console. That's not what I want to use a computer for.

formerly_proven 4y ago

Uh, I wouldn't consider that to be "supporting Linux" then. On a laptop - which isn't marketed as supporting anything other than Windows 11 - that has similar (but higher spec) hardware than the 12th gen framework I see anywhere between 8 to 20+ hours of battery life, greatly depending on load - largely equivalent to what it does running Windows. The framework laptop would also seem to suffer from using user-replaceable DDR4 instead of, say, LPDDR5 like 12th gen compatriots generally do (higher performance, less power).

aussiesnack 4y ago

I'm another f/t Fedora user. I've been using Linux on dozens of laptops for over 2 decades. Not once in my experience has Linux got the same battery life as Windows on the same machine, regardless of tweaks. I did have about 5 years on MacOS, and that was the best of all, but that was different hardware of course. Linux just is worse on battery than any of the other mainstream OSs in my experience, though the margin has reduced over time. It's still my platform of choice (because even now, in 2022, the choices available are crap), but denial makes them disappear only from the imagination, not reality.

prima-facie 4y ago

That's probably because of BDProcHot throttling shenanigans on Windows. It's no use having 9hrs battery life if your CPU runs at 800Mhz.

lightedman 4y ago
"It's no use having 9hrs battery life if your CPU runs at 800Mhz." 800MHz would be more than enough processing power for most things I do. Just about virtually everything we do now, we were doing when 400MHz Celerons existed. Nobody does efficient coding any longer.
derkades 4y ago
I have purposely configured my laptop with a maximum cpu performance target of 30% when on battery. No more fan noise, much longer battery life, performance difference is barely noticable (except in tasks like gaming and video transcoding which I don't do on battery)

TylerE 4y ago

Wow that’s horrible. I’ve got a 7 year old MacBook with a battery that needs servicing and I can still get nearly 3 hours out of that, and that’s running IntelliJ

cbsmith 4y ago

Framework's Linux support is very... DYI. I would say it's a long step away from a laptop designed for Linux (the new Chromebook offering being the exception that proves the rule). > It's not Linux's fault per se, it's just that there's considerably less engineering manpower going into tuning the power efficiency of laptop hardware on Linux. You're not wrong, but it's worse than that. A lot of the power management is tied in to proprietary firmware. Then there's the whole Intel Gen12 debacle... I would argue that Chromebooks are pretty solid proof that it isn't Linux's fault, because they by and large Linux systems that get fantastic power management results. > People get up in arms because they can't reconcile the fact that "Windows is bloated" with the fact that it gets better battery life, but if you think about it for a few seconds it really shouldn't surprise anyone. Windows gets better battery life on laptops designed for better battery life with Windows. At the same time, it is often surprising how running a program under WINE on Linux will outperform the same program running on Windows. ;-)

cbsmith 4y ago
> I would argue that Chromebooks are pretty solid proof that it isn't Linux's fault, because they by and large Linux systems that get fantastic power management results. Sorry, that should read: "I would argue that Chromebooks are pretty solid proof that it isn't Linux's fault, because they are Linux systems that by and large get fantastic power management results.

andrepd 4y ago

n=1. Want another n=1? I have up to 9h on Linux but never more than 5h on Windows.

RosanaAnaDana 4y ago

I'm very disappointed in my Framework/PopOS! Ships with Linux, some good marketing. I think PopOS! has lost the thread on why they exist, in that it started as an 'it just works' version of linux, and it seems to be managed as yet another enthusiast grade linux. It doesn't take much time over at r/popos to see this sentiment spelled out. I'm not leaving the linux ecosystem, but I can tell you i'd be shocked if I go with either Framework again. Majorly disappointed for what should have been a top tier system when I bought it. I'm on the fence about PopOS. I need an OS that works out of the gate and doesn't break things like audio and bluetooth down the road (both of which are borked in the current version). Idk. Hard time to be committed to FOSS, but the options aren't better.

slaw 4y ago
I don't see option to order Framework laptop with PopOS! If you install OS yourself, it is not officially supported.

linuxhansl 4y ago

My experience is exactly the opposite. If that make me a "Linux apologist" I don't really care. Install TLP, uninstall thermald, and make sure turbo mode is off (it's on by default in Linux - probably applies to Intel only). Under light load the system is using 6-8w (about 9-10h of usage on the 80WH battery), under 4w when completely idle. This is latest Fedora on a ThinkPad X1 Extreme with KDE. I want to see that with Windows. You have to invest a bit more time with Linux (for example the fingerprint reader on my Laptop prevented the CPU from going into lower power modes), and that part is unfortunate. On the other hand I never experience things randomly not working like it was with Windows. Your mileage may vary.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Install TLP, uninstall thermald, and make sure turbo mode is off (it's on by default in Linux - probably applies to Intel only). Sorry, but that's not a good argument in favor of Linux when basic power management is not part of the OS and you need to set it up yourself manually. Can you imagine Microsoft or Apple shipping their OSs without power management? I need an OS to work out of the box so I can get to work/entertainment, not a hobby to tinker with. I still enjoy tinkering with Linux but it should be only when I want-to, not a need-to. > I want to see that with Windows. Yeah, you can get Linux to be more economical than Windows by manually installing a bunch of tools that throttle down the CPU into its lowest power mode and running it at 600MHz fixed all the time, and now you have a laptop that's super slow, all for the sake of battery life and winning online arguments. Good job. /s You can force that in Windows as well, but why would you? I want to see Linux automatically scale the CPU power and frequency based on the load put on it like Windows does: idles at 600MHz when doing nothing, click on the Firefox tab and it shoots up to 3,6GHz, then back down to 800MHz. That's what any sane OS should do out of the box, not have you install and fiddle with a bunch of tools and maybe still not be as good. >On the other hand I never experience things randomly not working like it was with Windows. I have way more things randomly not working on Ubuntu 22.04 Gnome at work than on Windows 11 at home (none actually on this one). And I'm saying this an Linux/FOSS user and fan.
- _piif 4y ago

slaw 4y ago

Framework laptop doesn't have option to buy with Linux, there is only an option to buy without Windows. For me that is not what officall support is. I had Motile M141 laptop with Ryzen 3200U and it had better battery life on Linux than Windows.