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Sorry to break the carefully chiseled communication of the Estonian government, but e-services in Estonia aren't so great. Source: I leave here. The Estonian e

Sorry to break the carefully chiseled communication of the Estonian government, but e-services in Estonia aren't so great. Source: I leave here. The Estonian e-id is a good idea, but very badly implemented, and quite creepy: - You need to install some government software on your computer to use basic services. They ask you to install a browser extension. huh... - The software UI is really crap. You get error messages in Russian, you have 3 apps for different purposes. You need to dump your cookies before using the e-id online, and it's nowhere said. Using e-id is usually a real pain, as it doesn't work out of the box most of the time. - It's not needed most of the time. Why do I need to find my e-id, the adapter, my code, just to check my internet provider account? A simple mail/password would have been fine. - If you're on your phone, you can use a "mobil-id" and use it like this, and pay using your id. Ok, but then, well...there's a disturbing centralization of data. A friend got a tax inspection because his supermarket card was linked to his e-id and he was seemingly spending more than what he was getting paid for his job. Are you OK with the government spying on your spending? - Estonia has almost no public services. Healthcare is a joke here - you need to wait often more than 3 months to see a specialist, even in Tallinn. Kindergartens are very difficult to access without bribing the administration (you don't need an e-id for this). There's a very opaque "elite school" system, which is geared around gatekeeping the good schools for the elite, while the rest of the population gets sub-par education. So yeah, being able to book a doctor online is interesting only if there are doctors available. Also, in the rest of the economy, one is forced to admit that web services are really underdeveloped - most shops don't have an online presence. Estonia's very good at PR, but most foreigners there (and some of the local population that lived abroad) will tell you it's mainly bs.

Strom 4y ago
None of this matches my experience. > You need to install some government software It's open source and on github. Check out any of the ~50 repos https://github.com/orgs/open-eid/repositories https://github.com/orgs/open-eid/repositories --- not sure why this would be less trusted than any other open source software. > The software UI is really crap. I won't argue about the subjective taste of design, but at least the UI is Qt and not Electron. > You get error messages in Russian When you have it configured in English? Maybe. I can say that when configured to Estonian I've never seen any other language. > You need to dump your cookies Never heard of anyone having to do this. Sounds like a website specific issue anyway. > Why do I need [my e-id] just to check my internet provider account? Because you can sign binding legal agreements without leaving your home. It's convenient. > A friend got a tax inspection because his supermarket card was linked to his e-id and he was seemingly spending more than what he was getting paid for his job. This sounds like some grade A conspiracy. There is no government agency whose job is to collect supermarket purchase data. Are you claiming there is some sort of shadow organization hidden somewhere that goes through this data? I would bet that the tax inspection happened for other reasons and this conspiracy theory is made up. > Estonia has almost no public services Is this hyperbole? Do you have an example of a public service that is missing? > Healthcare is a joke here - you need to wait often more than 3 months to see a specialist, even in Tallinn. Not if your case has a medical reason to be prioritized. You can also always pay and go to a private clinic. > Kindergartens are very difficult to access without bribing the administration I'll assume you mean getting your kid into one by access. Some districts do indeed have long waiting lists. However if you register as soon as your kid is born the problem goes away. The problem usually surfaces when young parents are unaware of the registration waiting list and then later expect to be immediately admitted. That is only possible with 3+ year olds. The waiting lists are real for younger ones. The part about bribing is laughably false. Kindergarten administration doesn't have digital authorization to reorder the database, which is ran by different organizations. I guess maybe some kindergarten could take your kid "extra on the side" unofficially, but that's more like a special favor. There is no way to influence the actual registration list. > There's a very opaque "elite school" system Elite schools are like that in every country. Do you think an elite school would remain elite if it had general admission? > most shops don't have an online presence Are you talking about mom & pop stores? Because the biggest stores like Selver, Prisma, Rimi, Coop, Stockmann not only have an online presence but even do delivery. I think only Maxima doesn't do delivery, but still has an online listing of items. -- To summarize, you listed so many things that to me feel clearly false that its rather weird. You're either one of the unluckiest people in Estonia or have an axe to grind. Either way I hope you'll do better in the future, because me and everyone else I know has a much happier life in Estonia than what you described. Cheers!
- Kretinsky 4y ago
  > It's open source and on github. Check out any of the ~50 repos https://github.com/orgs/open-eid/repositories https://github.com/orgs/open-eid/repositories --- not sure why this would be less trusted than any other open source software. Would you install North Korea's open-source software on your computer? The general security of the system has been compromised quite a few times already: https://news.err.ee/1608294000/ak-ria-unlikely-to-be-fined-over-mass-photo-hack-victims-not-compensated https://news.err.ee/1608294000/ak-ria-unlikely-to-be-fined-o... Also, there was a case of a massive data leak following the loss of a hard drive in public transportation by a public servant. Maybe having all records online and collected (including citizen's DNA) isn't such a good idea? > Never heard of anyone having to do this. Sounds like a website specific issue anyway. My wife has the problem on her windows computer, I have it on a Mac, we found the issue on a forum, so yes it's clearly common. > Because you can sign binding legal agreements without leaving your home. It's convenient. I wonder how people can sign such legal agreements elsewhere in the world. > This sounds like some grade A conspiracy. That's what the tax agent told my friend. Given that you can use your e-id for payment and customer card, it doesn't sound so complex to understand, many other countries do the same. > Is this hyperbole? Do you have an example of a public service that is missing? Public services are way way too underfunded. Having an appointment with a doctor takes way too much time (months if you don't pay). Getting stuff like orthodonthy outside Tallinn is very complex. If you go to the public hospital at night, the urgency services are left to the bare minimum (I experienced this). All expats that had health problems here (including stuff like "birthing") have horror stories to tell - medecine is delivered like in the soviet times. It's no wonder Estonia has a sky-high rate of preventable diseases and mortality: https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/419457/Country-Health-Profile-2019-Estonia.pdf https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/419457/... Tallinn's administration is a joke. They don't do urban planning, so zones like Kalamaja get overbuilt, with almost no shops, roads get crowded (or just free-for-all parking spaces with 0 enforcement), they don't plan for schools, and so on. Mismanagement is the norm, and don't get me started on the electric scooter anarchic situation - walking in the street is as stressful as it gets. Can we talk about the fact that snow and ice isn't removed from the sidewalk, causing several injuries each year? > I'll assume you mean getting your kid into one by access. Some districts do indeed have long waiting lists. However if you register as soon as your kid is born the problem goes away. The problem usually surfaces when young parents are unaware of the registration waiting list and then later expect to be immediately admitted. That is only possible with 3+ year olds. The waiting lists are real for younger ones. Please don't bullshit on this one. Yes, you can get a spot in a kindergarten 45 minutes-away from where you leave, or get an allocation (which won't be enough) to put your kid into a private one. However, if you want to be in one near your home, no luck - unless you bribe. I know, many, many people who did it, so think what you want. Also, "However if you register as soon as your kid is born the problem goes away." - We did it, our kid was 500 places away in the waiting list the day after he was born. So, no, it doesn't go away, because you don't have enough room for all kids. Simple as this. > Elite schools are like that in every country. Do you think an elite school would remain elite if it had general admission? Again, typical lie I hear here. The entrance exam is done at 6 years old, but school isn't compulsory before, so it relies on the parent's education and knowledge on how to game it. The exam is quite opaque, as it's not standardized, it's recommended to attend a "prep school" before (the private ones whith the elite school teachers being the best, hehe), and schools are only in Tallinn. When Public Acts like Private: the failure of Estonia’s school choice mechanism https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.2304/eerj.2014.13.2.220 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.2304/eerj.2014.13.2.... good article about it. You have a mention at the end that "private donations" help. If you can game easily the system by having insider's info, it's not "elite" any more I'm afraid. > Are you talking about mom & pop stores? Because the biggest stores like Selver, Prisma, Rimi, Coop, Stockmann not only have an online presence but even do delivery. I think only Maxima doesn't do delivery, but still has an online listing of items. Yeah, given that Estonia has very very few shops in general, I'm talking about the medium-to-smaller ones. Just to recall, Estonia's narrative is that it's a very advanced IT country - in really, it's really not that. Sorry to break the carefully-chiseled narrative, but I really think Estonia should recognize that a lot of things are wrong, to solve them and have a new start. Maybe Estonians would have a much nicer society, youngsters would stop to leave and mental health problems would decrease a bit.

Strom 4y ago

None of this matches my experience. > You need to install some government software It's open source and on github. Check out any of the ~50 repos https://github.com/orgs/open-eid/repositories https://github.com/orgs/open-eid/repositories --- not sure why this would be less trusted than any other open source software. > The software UI is really crap. I won't argue about the subjective taste of design, but at least the UI is Qt and not Electron. > You get error messages in Russian When you have it configured in English? Maybe. I can say that when configured to Estonian I've never seen any other language. > You need to dump your cookies Never heard of anyone having to do this. Sounds like a website specific issue anyway. > Why do I need [my e-id] just to check my internet provider account? Because you can sign binding legal agreements without leaving your home. It's convenient. > A friend got a tax inspection because his supermarket card was linked to his e-id and he was seemingly spending more than what he was getting paid for his job. This sounds like some grade A conspiracy. There is no government agency whose job is to collect supermarket purchase data. Are you claiming there is some sort of shadow organization hidden somewhere that goes through this data? I would bet that the tax inspection happened for other reasons and this conspiracy theory is made up. > Estonia has almost no public services Is this hyperbole? Do you have an example of a public service that is missing? > Healthcare is a joke here - you need to wait often more than 3 months to see a specialist, even in Tallinn. Not if your case has a medical reason to be prioritized. You can also always pay and go to a private clinic. > Kindergartens are very difficult to access without bribing the administration I'll assume you mean getting your kid into one by access. Some districts do indeed have long waiting lists. However if you register as soon as your kid is born the problem goes away. The problem usually surfaces when young parents are unaware of the registration waiting list and then later expect to be immediately admitted. That is only possible with 3+ year olds. The waiting lists are real for younger ones. The part about bribing is laughably false. Kindergarten administration doesn't have digital authorization to reorder the database, which is ran by different organizations. I guess maybe some kindergarten could take your kid "extra on the side" unofficially, but that's more like a special favor. There is no way to influence the actual registration list. > There's a very opaque "elite school" system Elite schools are like that in every country. Do you think an elite school would remain elite if it had general admission? > most shops don't have an online presence Are you talking about mom & pop stores? Because the biggest stores like Selver, Prisma, Rimi, Coop, Stockmann not only have an online presence but even do delivery. I think only Maxima doesn't do delivery, but still has an online listing of items. -- To summarize, you listed so many things that to me feel clearly false that its rather weird. You're either one of the unluckiest people in Estonia or have an axe to grind. Either way I hope you'll do better in the future, because me and everyone else I know has a much happier life in Estonia than what you described. Cheers!

Kretinsky 4y ago
> It's open source and on github. Check out any of the ~50 repos https://github.com/orgs/open-eid/repositories https://github.com/orgs/open-eid/repositories --- not sure why this would be less trusted than any other open source software. Would you install North Korea's open-source software on your computer? The general security of the system has been compromised quite a few times already: https://news.err.ee/1608294000/ak-ria-unlikely-to-be-fined-over-mass-photo-hack-victims-not-compensated https://news.err.ee/1608294000/ak-ria-unlikely-to-be-fined-o... Also, there was a case of a massive data leak following the loss of a hard drive in public transportation by a public servant. Maybe having all records online and collected (including citizen's DNA) isn't such a good idea? > Never heard of anyone having to do this. Sounds like a website specific issue anyway. My wife has the problem on her windows computer, I have it on a Mac, we found the issue on a forum, so yes it's clearly common. > Because you can sign binding legal agreements without leaving your home. It's convenient. I wonder how people can sign such legal agreements elsewhere in the world. > This sounds like some grade A conspiracy. That's what the tax agent told my friend. Given that you can use your e-id for payment and customer card, it doesn't sound so complex to understand, many other countries do the same. > Is this hyperbole? Do you have an example of a public service that is missing? Public services are way way too underfunded. Having an appointment with a doctor takes way too much time (months if you don't pay). Getting stuff like orthodonthy outside Tallinn is very complex. If you go to the public hospital at night, the urgency services are left to the bare minimum (I experienced this). All expats that had health problems here (including stuff like "birthing") have horror stories to tell - medecine is delivered like in the soviet times. It's no wonder Estonia has a sky-high rate of preventable diseases and mortality: https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/419457/Country-Health-Profile-2019-Estonia.pdf https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/419457/... Tallinn's administration is a joke. They don't do urban planning, so zones like Kalamaja get overbuilt, with almost no shops, roads get crowded (or just free-for-all parking spaces with 0 enforcement), they don't plan for schools, and so on. Mismanagement is the norm, and don't get me started on the electric scooter anarchic situation - walking in the street is as stressful as it gets. Can we talk about the fact that snow and ice isn't removed from the sidewalk, causing several injuries each year? > I'll assume you mean getting your kid into one by access. Some districts do indeed have long waiting lists. However if you register as soon as your kid is born the problem goes away. The problem usually surfaces when young parents are unaware of the registration waiting list and then later expect to be immediately admitted. That is only possible with 3+ year olds. The waiting lists are real for younger ones. Please don't bullshit on this one. Yes, you can get a spot in a kindergarten 45 minutes-away from where you leave, or get an allocation (which won't be enough) to put your kid into a private one. However, if you want to be in one near your home, no luck - unless you bribe. I know, many, many people who did it, so think what you want. Also, "However if you register as soon as your kid is born the problem goes away." - We did it, our kid was 500 places away in the waiting list the day after he was born. So, no, it doesn't go away, because you don't have enough room for all kids. Simple as this. > Elite schools are like that in every country. Do you think an elite school would remain elite if it had general admission? Again, typical lie I hear here. The entrance exam is done at 6 years old, but school isn't compulsory before, so it relies on the parent's education and knowledge on how to game it. The exam is quite opaque, as it's not standardized, it's recommended to attend a "prep school" before (the private ones whith the elite school teachers being the best, hehe), and schools are only in Tallinn. When Public Acts like Private: the failure of Estonia’s school choice mechanism https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.2304/eerj.2014.13.2.220 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.2304/eerj.2014.13.2.... good article about it. You have a mention at the end that "private donations" help. If you can game easily the system by having insider's info, it's not "elite" any more I'm afraid. > Are you talking about mom & pop stores? Because the biggest stores like Selver, Prisma, Rimi, Coop, Stockmann not only have an online presence but even do delivery. I think only Maxima doesn't do delivery, but still has an online listing of items. Yeah, given that Estonia has very very few shops in general, I'm talking about the medium-to-smaller ones. Just to recall, Estonia's narrative is that it's a very advanced IT country - in really, it's really not that. Sorry to break the carefully-chiseled narrative, but I really think Estonia should recognize that a lot of things are wrong, to solve them and have a new start. Maybe Estonians would have a much nicer society, youngsters would stop to leave and mental health problems would decrease a bit.