5 ms·

Let me play devil's advocate here, I've known a number of law enforcement/military individuals and have asked them the same question. Here's the situation they

by nscalf 4y ago

Let me play devil's advocate here, I've known a number of law enforcement/military individuals and have asked them the same question. Here's the situation they paint to me. Imagine you have to go arrest someone, essentially using force to limit their freedom. You know virtually nothing about this person, except that they are the type of person who will break laws serious enough to get arrested. Now, do you want some protection from a gun, or no? And do you want to go there with 1 other person? Or as many as you can get. It seems very excessive from the outside, because we have full knowledge of the situation at the outcome. When you go into these situations, you're essentially blind, so you're exposing yourself to the entire risk profile.

actionfromafar 4y ago
… and then the police gave the detained person a warm bathrobe and a pair of slippers.
breck 4y ago
Yes this is it. People don't realize how many police officers are murdered each year (more than 1 per week). It's just a precaution. I mean, don't get me wrong I think going after a news site is bull shit and I think we should all rally around this guy, but it was not these officers' decision to arrest them and I don't think it was excessive, it was safe (for everyone). In other countries we wouldn't hear anything about excessive force (because the jaw of the one being arrested would have been broken).
- adrienthebo 4y ago
  In 2021 more than 140 firefighters died, coming out to more than 3 a week. First responder jobs are dangerous which is why there's training to reduce the danger. Having an officer grab them a pair of pants and a shirt wouldn't imperil scene safety and the fact that the raid team couldn't bother says plenty.
  - breck 4y ago
    have you ever been a police officer? i haven't, but ive been in enough situations where guns were pulled that i know when someone doesnt know what theyre talking about
    - karlkatzke 4y ago
      Funny, I’m not a police officer either, and I’ve somehow managed to go my entire life without being in ANY situation where a gun was pulled. Maybe you should re-evaluate your personal risk level and reconsider choices you’ve made in your life instead of defending shitty authoritarian practices of a government that wouldn’t give a shit about you.
      - thwayunion 4y ago
        Hard agree. If you are having guns pulled on your regularly, that's definitely not just "bad neighborhood" issues. You either have extremely bad luck or need to reevaluate your life choices. Anyways, to get back on topic: having an old woman stand in front of her house in underwear while the neighbors watch is completely unnecessary but totally unsurprising. Moves like this contribute to the ongoing breakdown in policing legitimacy, and we shouldn't settle for a world where we have to choose the least bad unaccountable organized gang. Just to put a finer point on it: this kind of humiliation would never happen during a home invasion, and for most people the humiliation is a larger harm than losing some computer equipment.
      - breck 4y ago
        Everyone dies, not everyone lives. Freedom isn't free. https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/1012350_10100400005577424_1819411107_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=19026a&_nc_ohc=c_VYRb9qFLQAX9kImh5&tn=nYjq4hYSqgUeJrDt&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=00_AfBqXQy8JjtjGol8GJApkIekbiq5x7gKVXxoU42YFv0CrA&oe=639E2075 https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/1012350_10...
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      > have you ever been a police officer? I like how you imply this would be disqualifying, only to follow it up with "i haven't". If you amputate the wrong leg, I don't need to be a doctor to tell you "that's not great".
- karlkatzke 4y ago
  More delivery drivers are murdered every year than police officers, but you don’t see people rolling around with “thin bread line” bumper stickers.
  - breck 4y ago
    dataset needed
giantg2 4y ago
"except that they are the type of person who will break laws serious enough to get arrested." Literally every type of crime involves arrest. It's that some crimes are custodial arrests and others are not. You can be arrested and in custody for going 26mph over the speed limit. That's a pretty low bar. Yes, I know people in law enforcement and the military as well. Many of them disagree with the types of actions you see in these high profile raids. Let's not forget that some of the very agents involved in things like Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians have shown harsh criticism of how inappropriately the leadership handled the strategy for those.
from 4y ago
Does tipping off local media in order to embarrass the suspect also make them more secure? People whose crime amounted to changing numbers on accounting spreadsheets have had all their doors simultaneously kicked down. They most likely have an idea of what the crime is because they have needed a warrant to get access to the property in the first place.
thih9 4y ago
It seems the idea is to always assume the worst. Wouldn’t it be better to assume what’s most likely (some reluctant cooperation, I suppose) and escalate if there’s no cooperation? Also, would anyone risk not cooperating? Wouldn’t that in itself be a more serious offense?
Shorel 4y ago
> When you go into these situations, you're essentially blind Nah, doesn't convince me. They can perfectly stalk the house for a few days and even listen to conversations, and have a realistic assessment of risk. It's simply a display of violence to intimidate everyone into not using drones and not trying to find anything about these areas. In fact, it's simply a display of violence, as many other law enforcement people use, when it is not needed.

by nscalf 4y ago

actionfromafar 4y ago

… and then the police gave the detained person a warm bathrobe and a pair of slippers.

breck 4y ago

Yes this is it. People don't realize how many police officers are murdered each year (more than 1 per week). It's just a precaution. I mean, don't get me wrong I think going after a news site is bull shit and I think we should all rally around this guy, but it was not these officers' decision to arrest them and I don't think it was excessive, it was safe (for everyone). In other countries we wouldn't hear anything about excessive force (because the jaw of the one being arrested would have been broken).

adrienthebo 4y ago
In 2021 more than 140 firefighters died, coming out to more than 3 a week. First responder jobs are dangerous which is why there's training to reduce the danger. Having an officer grab them a pair of pants and a shirt wouldn't imperil scene safety and the fact that the raid team couldn't bother says plenty.
- breck 4y ago
  have you ever been a police officer? i haven't, but ive been in enough situations where guns were pulled that i know when someone doesnt know what theyre talking about
  - karlkatzke 4y ago
    Funny, I’m not a police officer either, and I’ve somehow managed to go my entire life without being in ANY situation where a gun was pulled. Maybe you should re-evaluate your personal risk level and reconsider choices you’ve made in your life instead of defending shitty authoritarian practices of a government that wouldn’t give a shit about you.
    - thwayunion 4y ago
      Hard agree. If you are having guns pulled on your regularly, that's definitely not just "bad neighborhood" issues. You either have extremely bad luck or need to reevaluate your life choices. Anyways, to get back on topic: having an old woman stand in front of her house in underwear while the neighbors watch is completely unnecessary but totally unsurprising. Moves like this contribute to the ongoing breakdown in policing legitimacy, and we shouldn't settle for a world where we have to choose the least bad unaccountable organized gang. Just to put a finer point on it: this kind of humiliation would never happen during a home invasion, and for most people the humiliation is a larger harm than losing some computer equipment.
    - breck 4y ago
      Everyone dies, not everyone lives. Freedom isn't free. https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/1012350_10100400005577424_1819411107_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=19026a&_nc_ohc=c_VYRb9qFLQAX9kImh5&tn=nYjq4hYSqgUeJrDt&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=00_AfBqXQy8JjtjGol8GJApkIekbiq5x7gKVXxoU42YFv0CrA&oe=639E2075 https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/1012350_10...
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    > have you ever been a police officer? I like how you imply this would be disqualifying, only to follow it up with "i haven't". If you amputate the wrong leg, I don't need to be a doctor to tell you "that's not great".
karlkatzke 4y ago
More delivery drivers are murdered every year than police officers, but you don’t see people rolling around with “thin bread line” bumper stickers.
- breck 4y ago
  dataset needed

giantg2 4y ago

"except that they are the type of person who will break laws serious enough to get arrested." Literally every type of crime involves arrest. It's that some crimes are custodial arrests and others are not. You can be arrested and in custody for going 26mph over the speed limit. That's a pretty low bar. Yes, I know people in law enforcement and the military as well. Many of them disagree with the types of actions you see in these high profile raids. Let's not forget that some of the very agents involved in things like Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians have shown harsh criticism of how inappropriately the leadership handled the strategy for those.

from 4y ago

Does tipping off local media in order to embarrass the suspect also make them more secure? People whose crime amounted to changing numbers on accounting spreadsheets have had all their doors simultaneously kicked down. They most likely have an idea of what the crime is because they have needed a warrant to get access to the property in the first place.

thih9 4y ago

It seems the idea is to always assume the worst. Wouldn’t it be better to assume what’s most likely (some reluctant cooperation, I suppose) and escalate if there’s no cooperation? Also, would anyone risk not cooperating? Wouldn’t that in itself be a more serious offense?

Shorel 4y ago

> When you go into these situations, you're essentially blind Nah, doesn't convince me. They can perfectly stalk the house for a few days and even listen to conversations, and have a realistic assessment of risk. It's simply a display of violence to intimidate everyone into not using drones and not trying to find anything about these areas. In fact, it's simply a display of violence, as many other law enforcement people use, when it is not needed.