27 ms·

The problem in most other countries isn't PBA cards, it's bribes, either solicited by or offered to the police. So this is really not that big of an issue in t

by manv1 4y ago

The problem in most other countries isn't PBA cards, it's bribes, either solicited by or offered to the police. So this is really not that big of an issue in the grand scheme of things. I mean, cops usually get free coffee and snacks. Is that an issue?

matthewdgreen 4y ago
I think we should pay cops enough that free coffee and snacks isn't necessary, but obviously that's a much smaller issue than having a two-tier justice system that gives different results for "friends of police" and "ordinary taxpayers." When I worked at a large corporation, HR gave us a lecture about not accepting any gifts over $25 or something. I would like to live in a world where police departments function with at least a similar level of integrity.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  People don't give cops free coffee because they think police are so underpaid they can't afford a cup out of their own pocket. They do it because they know that police enforcement and assistance is inconsistent and based largely on mood and favoritism, and are doing what they hope will put them on the right side of that.
  - matthewdgreen 4y ago
    When I say I'm willing to pay police more, it's not because I'm worried they can't afford donuts.* I'm saying this because I would like to have a more professional police force and I'm willing to raise compensation as a carrot in exchange for enforcing higher standards (i.e., basic standards of ethical behavior that are table stakes for white collar employees in large corporations.) Right now most police pay is bad, but police get a basket of official and "unofficial" benefits to make up for it. We should eliminate the unofficial ones and offer real compensation in exchange. * Although, yikes, I paid $7.50 with tax for 1/2 dozen donuts at Dunkin yesterday, so maybe this isn't trivial.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      Ah I see, that does make sense. I would offer that they already are very professional and effective at their purpose, it's just that their actual purpose is very different from their stated purpose. Paying them more won't bring them more in line with what we wish the police did though. They will just continue to terrorize the vulnerable and protect capital because that is their actual role.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Why do you think police make? How much would be required to align incentives? Looking at my city, Most officers make more thank 300K. Sergeants and Lieutenant make more than 400K, and the chief makes more than 550k https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2020/ https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2020/
- runnerup 4y ago
  Police officers make pretty good money, although I would advocate for more base pay with higher bar to entry and a broad change in culture to be more pro-actively helpful and less violent. Austin $62k-102k for low level officers, before overtime. Most police departments in metropolitan areas seem to offer lots of overtime potential, which can sometimes triple an officer's pay if they work an admittedly incredible number of hours. But it does happen that low level officers take home over $200k in LCOL cities like Houston.
klyrs 4y ago
At best, PBAs are indirect bribery. The PBAs take that money to defend police misconduct in the rare cases that their misconduct ends up on court. Relative lack of corruption is what distinguishes egalitarian societies. Cops shouldn't accept free coffee and snacks. Just as politicians shouldn't accept gifts. That's corruption.
MandieD 4y ago
Someone in my extended family got caught seriously drunk driving in Mississippi, and probably because he was a neatly-dressed, well-spoken white guy, the court clerk subtly hinted that a $2000 donation to the county sheriff's department benefit fund would confirm to all concerned that he was indeed a nice, civic-minded young man who shouldn't have his life ruined over a silly mistake. He wrote that check, and ended up pleading guilty to reckless/careless driving (can't remember which), which carries far fewer long term consequences than a DUI.

by manv1 4y ago

matthewdgreen 4y ago

I think we should pay cops enough that free coffee and snacks isn't necessary, but obviously that's a much smaller issue than having a two-tier justice system that gives different results for "friends of police" and "ordinary taxpayers." When I worked at a large corporation, HR gave us a lecture about not accepting any gifts over $25 or something. I would like to live in a world where police departments function with at least a similar level of integrity.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
People don't give cops free coffee because they think police are so underpaid they can't afford a cup out of their own pocket. They do it because they know that police enforcement and assistance is inconsistent and based largely on mood and favoritism, and are doing what they hope will put them on the right side of that.
- matthewdgreen 4y ago
  When I say I'm willing to pay police more, it's not because I'm worried they can't afford donuts.* I'm saying this because I would like to have a more professional police force and I'm willing to raise compensation as a carrot in exchange for enforcing higher standards (i.e., basic standards of ethical behavior that are table stakes for white collar employees in large corporations.) Right now most police pay is bad, but police get a basket of official and "unofficial" benefits to make up for it. We should eliminate the unofficial ones and offer real compensation in exchange. * Although, yikes, I paid $7.50 with tax for 1/2 dozen donuts at Dunkin yesterday, so maybe this isn't trivial.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Ah I see, that does make sense. I would offer that they already are very professional and effective at their purpose, it's just that their actual purpose is very different from their stated purpose. Paying them more won't bring them more in line with what we wish the police did though. They will just continue to terrorize the vulnerable and protect capital because that is their actual role.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Why do you think police make? How much would be required to align incentives? Looking at my city, Most officers make more thank 300K. Sergeants and Lieutenant make more than 400K, and the chief makes more than 550k https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2020/ https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2020/
runnerup 4y ago
Police officers make pretty good money, although I would advocate for more base pay with higher bar to entry and a broad change in culture to be more pro-actively helpful and less violent. Austin $62k-102k for low level officers, before overtime. Most police departments in metropolitan areas seem to offer lots of overtime potential, which can sometimes triple an officer's pay if they work an admittedly incredible number of hours. But it does happen that low level officers take home over $200k in LCOL cities like Houston.

klyrs 4y ago

At best, PBAs are indirect bribery. The PBAs take that money to defend police misconduct in the rare cases that their misconduct ends up on court. Relative lack of corruption is what distinguishes egalitarian societies. Cops shouldn't accept free coffee and snacks. Just as politicians shouldn't accept gifts. That's corruption.

MandieD 4y ago

Someone in my extended family got caught seriously drunk driving in Mississippi, and probably because he was a neatly-dressed, well-spoken white guy, the court clerk subtly hinted that a $2000 donation to the county sheriff's department benefit fund would confirm to all concerned that he was indeed a nice, civic-minded young man who shouldn't have his life ruined over a silly mistake. He wrote that check, and ended up pleading guilty to reckless/careless driving (can't remember which), which carries far fewer long term consequences than a DUI.