5 ms·

No, I mean regular old jeans. Women seem to be able to "get away" with wearing "female" clothing, as well as "male" clothing without any questions asked. At l

No, I mean regular old jeans. Women seem to be able to "get away" with wearing "female" clothing, as well as "male" clothing without any questions asked. At least in the circles I am in^. The opposite is certainly not the case. I was not attempting to be funny at all. ^And anybody wearing a "suit"-anything is just a stiff. The people I consider my peers don't do that either at work or casually.

skore 15y ago
Yes, and I maintain that jeans simply aren't as gender specific as a dress. I have never heard that jeans are 'male'. That's why it's not a comparison of opposites.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  That jeans have ceased to be gender specific is my point in a nutshell.
  - skore 15y ago
    That dresses haven't still breaks your initial argument. Also - jeans ceased to be considered gender specific in society while also never being, in their shape and technical form, gender specific to begin with.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      "That dresses haven't still breaks your initial argument." No. You must be misunderstanding my initial argument if you think that it does. You are definitely missing my point if you don't think that I understand that about jeans...
      - skore 15y ago
        Your initial argument was about having your sexuality judged if you are a man wearing a dress, but not if you're a woman wearing pants. You must concede that my point - that dresses being so specifically female (let's face facts - a man just cannot fill that cleavage without surgical help) makes it possible to even wear them as a comedic statement or an underlining of manliness - at least greatly reduces your point. That you appear to insist on the 60s idea of pants being inherently male (not as your argument, but you still use it as an argument, which makes no sense) further takes away from it. Actually, I really thought you were only pulling a lame joke in the beginning. If that's really your entire argument then I'm not sure why we bother arguing it in the first place. It seems like you don't care elaborating on your point anyhow. Edit: Hey Downvote Police, what about stepping out and adding reasoning to your downvotes? Thanks.
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        One word: Skirt. Apologies for the imprecise terminology.
        skore 15y ago
        Great, yes, that only changes the entire argument (exception to the rule here being kilts). Thanks for getting me 5 fresh downvotes ;-) (Also, guys: Continuing to downvote me? Come on!) [seems like we have reached the maximum depth here, so as a reply to the below: Nope, sorry. The item of clothing in question makes all the difference here. A dress is a very particular choice of word. And what kind of arguing is that you are suggesting, where I try to make your point for you in my own head? Sorry, I have no problem discussing whether men in skirts have their sexuality judged, but I'm not willing to discuss how I should have discussed that instead of discussing your actual wording - which was very different. I mean come on - you made a bad choice of words, own up to it.]
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        If you were willing to honestly consider the point I was attempting to make, then alternatives to "dress" should have been clear. Edit: I have owned up to that. I did not previously consider having cleavage to be an essential requirement for wearing a dress (and for the record, I think such an objection is absurd). However, my point above remains. Were you actually attempting to address the point I was clearly trying to make then a skirt would have been obvious. This discussion is not about individual articles of clothing but rather about gender specific clothing in general. You were narrowing your focus because you were not interested in having a real conversation. You were being overly pedantic and could not see the forest for the trees. You have to own up to that. Your downvotes and my upvotes should demonstrate to you that I was not expecting anything unreasonable from you. My point was clear to numerous other people. Regardless, if you are willing to concede my point when I substitute 'dress' with 'skirt', then you have conceded my point entirely. The specifics of my illustrational example matter little. I think we are done here.
        15y ago
cg 15y ago
It took many decades and two wars for women to be able to "get away with" wearing pants. They were adopted for practical reasons as women entered the workforce (skirts are more likely to get caught in factory machinery), and abandoned again when women exited the workforce post-war. Until the women's movement, pants on women were only tolerated when they were considered necessary.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  I am very aware. This is exactly why I picked pants for my example.
  - cg 15y ago
    I don't understand how men wearing dresses works as a comparison to women wearing pants, as there hasn't been an equivalent attempt by men to adopt dresses as everyday attire.
    - skore 15y ago
      He later changed 'dresses' to 'skirts'. And yes, that completely changes the argument (look at the other leg of this thread).
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Regardless of the history behind the current situation, the fact remains that women are more free to wear "male" clothing than men are to wear "female" clothing.

skore 15y ago

Yes, and I maintain that jeans simply aren't as gender specific as a dress. I have never heard that jeans are 'male'. That's why it's not a comparison of opposites.

burgerbrain 15y ago
That jeans have ceased to be gender specific is my point in a nutshell.
- skore 15y ago
  That dresses haven't still breaks your initial argument. Also - jeans ceased to be considered gender specific in society while also never being, in their shape and technical form, gender specific to begin with.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    "That dresses haven't still breaks your initial argument." No. You must be misunderstanding my initial argument if you think that it does. You are definitely missing my point if you don't think that I understand that about jeans...
    - skore 15y ago
      Your initial argument was about having your sexuality judged if you are a man wearing a dress, but not if you're a woman wearing pants. You must concede that my point - that dresses being so specifically female (let's face facts - a man just cannot fill that cleavage without surgical help) makes it possible to even wear them as a comedic statement or an underlining of manliness - at least greatly reduces your point. That you appear to insist on the 60s idea of pants being inherently male (not as your argument, but you still use it as an argument, which makes no sense) further takes away from it. Actually, I really thought you were only pulling a lame joke in the beginning. If that's really your entire argument then I'm not sure why we bother arguing it in the first place. It seems like you don't care elaborating on your point anyhow. Edit: Hey Downvote Police, what about stepping out and adding reasoning to your downvotes? Thanks.
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        One word: Skirt. Apologies for the imprecise terminology.
        skore 15y ago
        Great, yes, that only changes the entire argument (exception to the rule here being kilts). Thanks for getting me 5 fresh downvotes ;-) (Also, guys: Continuing to downvote me? Come on!) [seems like we have reached the maximum depth here, so as a reply to the below: Nope, sorry. The item of clothing in question makes all the difference here. A dress is a very particular choice of word. And what kind of arguing is that you are suggesting, where I try to make your point for you in my own head? Sorry, I have no problem discussing whether men in skirts have their sexuality judged, but I'm not willing to discuss how I should have discussed that instead of discussing your actual wording - which was very different. I mean come on - you made a bad choice of words, own up to it.]
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        If you were willing to honestly consider the point I was attempting to make, then alternatives to "dress" should have been clear. Edit: I have owned up to that. I did not previously consider having cleavage to be an essential requirement for wearing a dress (and for the record, I think such an objection is absurd). However, my point above remains. Were you actually attempting to address the point I was clearly trying to make then a skirt would have been obvious. This discussion is not about individual articles of clothing but rather about gender specific clothing in general. You were narrowing your focus because you were not interested in having a real conversation. You were being overly pedantic and could not see the forest for the trees. You have to own up to that. Your downvotes and my upvotes should demonstrate to you that I was not expecting anything unreasonable from you. My point was clear to numerous other people. Regardless, if you are willing to concede my point when I substitute 'dress' with 'skirt', then you have conceded my point entirely. The specifics of my illustrational example matter little. I think we are done here.
        15y ago

cg 15y ago

It took many decades and two wars for women to be able to "get away with" wearing pants. They were adopted for practical reasons as women entered the workforce (skirts are more likely to get caught in factory machinery), and abandoned again when women exited the workforce post-war. Until the women's movement, pants on women were only tolerated when they were considered necessary.

burgerbrain 15y ago
I am very aware. This is exactly why I picked pants for my example.
- cg 15y ago
  I don't understand how men wearing dresses works as a comparison to women wearing pants, as there hasn't been an equivalent attempt by men to adopt dresses as everyday attire.
  - skore 15y ago
    He later changed 'dresses' to 'skirts'. And yes, that completely changes the argument (look at the other leg of this thread).
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Regardless of the history behind the current situation, the fact remains that women are more free to wear "male" clothing than men are to wear "female" clothing.