5 ms·

It's very simple actually. You (and most of HN) live in a tech industry bubble. Living wages in the U.S are terrible and disposable income is non-existent. I wo

It's very simple actually. You (and most of HN) live in a tech industry bubble. Living wages in the U.S are terrible and disposable income is non-existent. I work a 9-5 just like everyone else but when it comes down to it I don't have the money to buy new books. I can either buy used paperback from a second-hand store, go to the library, or pirate an epub. None of these options pay the original author and are effectively the same. Given that I was never going to pay anyways, why do you find the third option unethical? It hurts absolutely no one but greatly enhances my quality of life and (in some cases) helps society by making me a more educated individual. The only thing piracy costs authors is opportunity (which in my case was always 0).

throwaway2037 4y ago
BetterWorldBooks.com is excellent. I have bought from them for years. I recommend you try it. Also, you wrote: <<None of these options pay the original author>> Libraries buy millions of books per year in the US -- expensive hardbacks. They must be the single largest buying group. That money pays authors. Also, I never once saw an author upset that a library was lending their book. The same is true for second hand book selling.
- dublinben 4y ago
  Here's an example I found in less than a minute of an author railing against used book sales: https://authorkristenlamb.com/2015/12/pay-the-writer-pirates-used-bookstores-why-writers-need-to-stand-up-for-whats-right/ https://authorkristenlamb.com/2015/12/pay-the-writer-pirates...
Barrin92 4y ago
If you're pirating Stephen King or a 300$ textbook from a guy who has tenure at Harvard I doubt anyone probably including the author cares but a fair amount of authors aren't making any more than you make. Friend of mine published her own graphic novel basically living in her parents attic and a day after it was out someone had ripped it and thrown it on a comic piracy site. That's not ethical. If you live on a 12-15/hour salary which I have too you still can afford the occassional book here and there, you can't tell me you spend zero on recreational stuff. I don't care if anyone fleeces Marvel studios but if people start pirating independent works from people no better off, often worse, that's iffy.
- connorgutman 4y ago
  I appreciate your sentiment, and trust me I really do want to support people like your friend, but no I literally do not have any money for recreational activities (and if I did I would buy a videogame or boardgame because it would last longer). I make $13.50 / h (which is above minimum wage here in Arizona) and go to school full-time. Rent is $1,000 (absolute cheapest I have found in my college town), groceries are roughly $500, gas is $50-$100 depending on world affairs, utilities are $250,public transportation (so that I don't have to pay for parking at shool) is $50, and the list goes on tbh. I'm lucky enough to have a Prius that was given to me by my family so no car payment even. I'm one of the lucky ones for being in college at all. This is the America that most people live in. Well even that isn't true, I have it way better than most.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    Checking out from a library and grabbing a pirated version are different in that checking out from a library generates demand. The library may respond by buying additional copies of a given work, and you can put in requests to your local library to buy work if they don't currently stock it. Even if a library refuses to buy the work, it's common for libraries to loan works to each other-- so a library from another city or further out may buy the book and let you borrow it for example. It all generates demand for libraries to buy more.
  - gameshot911 4y ago
    If you can't afford to purchase it, and you can't acquire it by alternative legal means, then (ethically) you just don't get to enjoy it. Sorry. There are lots of things I want that I can't afford, either.
    - brnaftr361 4y ago
      There are no objective ethics. It's an open problem. There's a whole lot of words to be said about that, but it's hardly worth discussion because ultimately the result would be wasted breath. Anyway, the sphere of economics is the least ethical domain of humanity there is. My dollar is not equal to your dollar, and our dollars aren't equal to Musk or Bezos. We pretend that is the case. There never were and never will be equivocality in exchange unless it's one idea for another.
trabant00 4y ago
I'm going to pretend you are serious and genuine so: - living wages in the US are something most of the rest of world only dreams about. And most can afford to buy a book once in a while, even new (of course it depends on the book). Source: eastern Europe. - second hand and library books have generated revenue for the author already. Going full piracy and decreasing demand for the those two hurts the author, hurts the second book stores and hurts the libraries. I pirate books as well but at least I'm honest about the consequences of my actions.
- connorgutman 4y ago
  I am absolutely genuine, and I think you do not understand the average American. The rest of the world may dream about our wages but it's still putting lipstick on a pig. Most the people I know can't even feed their families right now, let alone buy a book for pleasure. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but the lives of college-educated middle-class Americans and above are not representative of the majority. I will clarify, I obviously DO NOT think that my situation compares to someone in another country, specifically under-developed ones. In the context of books and recreational activities, however, I think you are vastly overestimating the US.
  - aquariusDue 4y ago
    I agree with you, even if it is unethical to pirate books I'd make the case that pirating books you can't afford to buy is what helped a non-trivial amount of people escape the generational cycle of poverty. In this particular case, stealing knowledge for a chance at a better career, the end might justify the means. Programmers from poor countries and poor backgrounds are were they are today making a good living from this career probably because of torrents with collections of programming books back from 10 years ago or more when free video learning on YouTube wasn't as developed as it is today. I made some sweeping generalizations but I hope I got my point across at least. This criminal avenue of pirating books and stealing potential revenue from authors is what allows some people to enjoy a better living.
    - 4y ago
connorgutman 4y ago
nickkell 4y ago
Renting from a library does in fact pay the author, at least in the UK
- connorgutman 4y ago
  Unfortunately, here in AR-15 land that's considered dirty communism.

throwaway2037 4y ago

BetterWorldBooks.com is excellent. I have bought from them for years. I recommend you try it. Also, you wrote: <<None of these options pay the original author>> Libraries buy millions of books per year in the US -- expensive hardbacks. They must be the single largest buying group. That money pays authors. Also, I never once saw an author upset that a library was lending their book. The same is true for second hand book selling.

dublinben 4y ago
Here's an example I found in less than a minute of an author railing against used book sales: https://authorkristenlamb.com/2015/12/pay-the-writer-pirates-used-bookstores-why-writers-need-to-stand-up-for-whats-right/ https://authorkristenlamb.com/2015/12/pay-the-writer-pirates...

Barrin92 4y ago

If you're pirating Stephen King or a 300$ textbook from a guy who has tenure at Harvard I doubt anyone probably including the author cares but a fair amount of authors aren't making any more than you make. Friend of mine published her own graphic novel basically living in her parents attic and a day after it was out someone had ripped it and thrown it on a comic piracy site. That's not ethical. If you live on a 12-15/hour salary which I have too you still can afford the occassional book here and there, you can't tell me you spend zero on recreational stuff. I don't care if anyone fleeces Marvel studios but if people start pirating independent works from people no better off, often worse, that's iffy.

connorgutman 4y ago
I appreciate your sentiment, and trust me I really do want to support people like your friend, but no I literally do not have any money for recreational activities (and if I did I would buy a videogame or boardgame because it would last longer). I make $13.50 / h (which is above minimum wage here in Arizona) and go to school full-time. Rent is $1,000 (absolute cheapest I have found in my college town), groceries are roughly $500, gas is $50-$100 depending on world affairs, utilities are $250,public transportation (so that I don't have to pay for parking at shool) is $50, and the list goes on tbh. I'm lucky enough to have a Prius that was given to me by my family so no car payment even. I'm one of the lucky ones for being in college at all. This is the America that most people live in. Well even that isn't true, I have it way better than most.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Checking out from a library and grabbing a pirated version are different in that checking out from a library generates demand. The library may respond by buying additional copies of a given work, and you can put in requests to your local library to buy work if they don't currently stock it. Even if a library refuses to buy the work, it's common for libraries to loan works to each other-- so a library from another city or further out may buy the book and let you borrow it for example. It all generates demand for libraries to buy more.
- gameshot911 4y ago
  If you can't afford to purchase it, and you can't acquire it by alternative legal means, then (ethically) you just don't get to enjoy it. Sorry. There are lots of things I want that I can't afford, either.
  - brnaftr361 4y ago
    There are no objective ethics. It's an open problem. There's a whole lot of words to be said about that, but it's hardly worth discussion because ultimately the result would be wasted breath. Anyway, the sphere of economics is the least ethical domain of humanity there is. My dollar is not equal to your dollar, and our dollars aren't equal to Musk or Bezos. We pretend that is the case. There never were and never will be equivocality in exchange unless it's one idea for another.

trabant00 4y ago

I'm going to pretend you are serious and genuine so: - living wages in the US are something most of the rest of world only dreams about. And most can afford to buy a book once in a while, even new (of course it depends on the book). Source: eastern Europe. - second hand and library books have generated revenue for the author already. Going full piracy and decreasing demand for the those two hurts the author, hurts the second book stores and hurts the libraries. I pirate books as well but at least I'm honest about the consequences of my actions.

connorgutman 4y ago
I am absolutely genuine, and I think you do not understand the average American. The rest of the world may dream about our wages but it's still putting lipstick on a pig. Most the people I know can't even feed their families right now, let alone buy a book for pleasure. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but the lives of college-educated middle-class Americans and above are not representative of the majority. I will clarify, I obviously DO NOT think that my situation compares to someone in another country, specifically under-developed ones. In the context of books and recreational activities, however, I think you are vastly overestimating the US.
- aquariusDue 4y ago
  I agree with you, even if it is unethical to pirate books I'd make the case that pirating books you can't afford to buy is what helped a non-trivial amount of people escape the generational cycle of poverty. In this particular case, stealing knowledge for a chance at a better career, the end might justify the means. Programmers from poor countries and poor backgrounds are were they are today making a good living from this career probably because of torrents with collections of programming books back from 10 years ago or more when free video learning on YouTube wasn't as developed as it is today. I made some sweeping generalizations but I hope I got my point across at least. This criminal avenue of pirating books and stealing potential revenue from authors is what allows some people to enjoy a better living.
  - 4y ago

connorgutman 4y ago

nickkell 4y ago

Renting from a library does in fact pay the author, at least in the UK

connorgutman 4y ago
Unfortunately, here in AR-15 land that's considered dirty communism.