8 ms·

“Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compuls

“Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State's inhabitants, or subjects.” M. Rothbard :)

JaimeThompson 4y ago
It's also, in part, what we pay to have a modern society.
- SuoDuanDao 4y ago
  There's a relevant quote about society being a parasite on the man with the hoe. Though I suspect it was coined by someone who's never tried to build a hoe without a society to help.
bryanlarsen 4y ago
"Property is theft". - Proudhon Both statements have equal validity.
- vidarh 4y ago
  And indeed, the first person to use libertarianism as the name of a political ideology, Joseph Dejacque, vigourously agreed with Proudhon on that, while he described Proudhon as "moderate anarchist, liberal, but not libertarian". Rothbard coopted the term, which was then long established.
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Well maybe you would change your opinion if private firefighters would arrive to your burning house and told you that they will buy it for 50 EUR, or they will let it burn to the ground. You will lose your hose in both cases.
- luciusdomitius 4y ago
  I think you need to sign a contract with the firefighters before shit starts burning. Car insurance, health insurance, any similar market driven service would not let you insure AFTER the accident either.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    I actually described how it was done in ancient Rome under Crassus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_firefighting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_firefighting
    - luciusdomitius 4y ago
      It is done like that in Constantinople to this day - check Basil Zaharoff for an early 20th century example
- djbebs 4y ago
  I wouldn't.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    What about paying for the police or defense?
dools 4y ago
Taxation is the foundation of currency, and creates all markets. Without taxes, there is no public purpose, and hence no society, unless you have a society that is sufficiently simple that you can operate it without money.
- luciusdomitius 4y ago
  So, Kuwait and other tax-free states have no currency or it is unstable? Let me check? Nah, you are lying. https://www.google.com/search?q=kuwaiti+dinar+in+usd https://www.google.com/search?q=kuwaiti+dinar+in+usd
  - dools 4y ago
    Kuwait doesn't impose personal income tax, sales tax or property taxes, but they do impose corporate income taxes: https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2021/07/kuwait-thinking-beyond-borders.html https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2021/07/kuwait-thinkin...
- ramblerman 4y ago
  There is so much to unpack there. You are conflating trade, value creation, money, government, and taxes in two sentences. - buyers and sellers (trade) create markets. - Taxation can happen via either currency or goods. - Governments manage societies, most happen to fund themselves via taxes. I'm not sure what you mean by public purpose.
  - dools 4y ago
    > - buyers and sellers (trade) create markets. Nope, markets are created by governments. > - Taxation can happen via either currency or goods. It's true that many early currencies are named after some commodity (shekel being a good example) because governments imposed a tax in a commodity and that then became the unit of account. It's the same principle though. > - Governments manage societies, most happen to fund themselves via taxes. Taxation is the sole means by which a government provisions resources away from the private sector, and to the public sector, unless your society is simple enough that you can run it without money (which is a pretty small society). > I'm not sure what you mean by public purpose. Things that we get by dint of belonging to a society, such as schooling and libraries.
vidarh 4y ago
I'm all for people being able to opt out of paying all taxes, as long as society is free to opt out of all dealings with those who choose to do so, including being free to refuse them access to use any publicly financed facilities, including roads, and the ability to refuse to trade with them.
- golergka 4y ago
  Don't conflate government with society. Taxes are necessary for the former and have nothing to do with the latter.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    Irrelevant to my argument. Read "society" as "those preparing to continue to pay tax" if you wish. The point being that organized societies consists of contracts, and I'm all for making that more so in the sense of letting those who feel coerced into them opt out. But the natural extension of that is that if you choose to owe a government nothing, then it and those who choose to remain part of what it govern has no duty to let you take part of its benefits either, as forcing them to do so would be just as much theft as taxation. You don't get to expect to be able to choose one or the other.

JaimeThompson 4y ago

It's also, in part, what we pay to have a modern society.

SuoDuanDao 4y ago
There's a relevant quote about society being a parasite on the man with the hoe. Though I suspect it was coined by someone who's never tried to build a hoe without a society to help.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

"Property is theft". - Proudhon Both statements have equal validity.

vidarh 4y ago
And indeed, the first person to use libertarianism as the name of a political ideology, Joseph Dejacque, vigourously agreed with Proudhon on that, while he described Proudhon as "moderate anarchist, liberal, but not libertarian". Rothbard coopted the term, which was then long established.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

Well maybe you would change your opinion if private firefighters would arrive to your burning house and told you that they will buy it for 50 EUR, or they will let it burn to the ground. You will lose your hose in both cases.

luciusdomitius 4y ago
I think you need to sign a contract with the firefighters before shit starts burning. Car insurance, health insurance, any similar market driven service would not let you insure AFTER the accident either.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  I actually described how it was done in ancient Rome under Crassus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_firefighting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_firefighting
  - luciusdomitius 4y ago
    It is done like that in Constantinople to this day - check Basil Zaharoff for an early 20th century example
djbebs 4y ago
I wouldn't.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  What about paying for the police or defense?

dools 4y ago

Taxation is the foundation of currency, and creates all markets. Without taxes, there is no public purpose, and hence no society, unless you have a society that is sufficiently simple that you can operate it without money.

luciusdomitius 4y ago
So, Kuwait and other tax-free states have no currency or it is unstable? Let me check? Nah, you are lying. https://www.google.com/search?q=kuwaiti+dinar+in+usd https://www.google.com/search?q=kuwaiti+dinar+in+usd
- dools 4y ago
  Kuwait doesn't impose personal income tax, sales tax or property taxes, but they do impose corporate income taxes: https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2021/07/kuwait-thinking-beyond-borders.html https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2021/07/kuwait-thinkin...
ramblerman 4y ago
There is so much to unpack there. You are conflating trade, value creation, money, government, and taxes in two sentences. - buyers and sellers (trade) create markets. - Taxation can happen via either currency or goods. - Governments manage societies, most happen to fund themselves via taxes. I'm not sure what you mean by public purpose.
- dools 4y ago
  > - buyers and sellers (trade) create markets. Nope, markets are created by governments. > - Taxation can happen via either currency or goods. It's true that many early currencies are named after some commodity (shekel being a good example) because governments imposed a tax in a commodity and that then became the unit of account. It's the same principle though. > - Governments manage societies, most happen to fund themselves via taxes. Taxation is the sole means by which a government provisions resources away from the private sector, and to the public sector, unless your society is simple enough that you can run it without money (which is a pretty small society). > I'm not sure what you mean by public purpose. Things that we get by dint of belonging to a society, such as schooling and libraries.

vidarh 4y ago

I'm all for people being able to opt out of paying all taxes, as long as society is free to opt out of all dealings with those who choose to do so, including being free to refuse them access to use any publicly financed facilities, including roads, and the ability to refuse to trade with them.

golergka 4y ago
Don't conflate government with society. Taxes are necessary for the former and have nothing to do with the latter.
- vidarh 4y ago
  Irrelevant to my argument. Read "society" as "those preparing to continue to pay tax" if you wish. The point being that organized societies consists of contracts, and I'm all for making that more so in the sense of letting those who feel coerced into them opt out. But the natural extension of that is that if you choose to owe a government nothing, then it and those who choose to remain part of what it govern has no duty to let you take part of its benefits either, as forcing them to do so would be just as much theft as taxation. You don't get to expect to be able to choose one or the other.