3 ms·

You are not deficient in stimulants. So using them is not the answer. Instead, look to nutrition. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/ https://pubmed.ncb

You are not deficient in stimulants. So using them is not the answer. Instead, look to nutrition. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/

eyelidlessness 4y ago
Treatment with stimulants doesn’t treat deficiencies of stimulants. This is immediately obvious with patients who actually benefit from the meds, because they’re generally not stimulated by them. Treatment with many chemicals doesn’t treat deficiencies of those chemicals. In the case of stimulants for ADHD, they help regulate dopamine and norepinephrine intake. In practical terms, results of successful treatment include improved management of executive function, reduced social and sensory stress, and healthier sleep patterns. I can’t say what anyone else’s answer is, but stimulants saved my life because the impact of the things they helped me address were life threatening. Using stimulants as prescribed by my doctor was definitely an answer for me, and I am grateful for the life I kept intact because of that.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  Medications saved my life as well. That is not the point. The point is do you keep taking them and not look for the nutritional answer to your problem. If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants?
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    > If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants? Assuming you mean “if treating a B6 deficiency”, and assuming I had strong expectations that I could expect a cure, I’d consider giving it a try. I’d be cautious about any transition, as it could mean either significant side effects while still taking stimulants, or significant regression without them if the B6 treatment doesn’t work as hoped. But I don’t even have a strong expectation that I could expect equivalent or better management. The study you linked was conducted with children, and the conclusions based on observations of children’s behavior. Maybe that’s a good indicator that it’s helpful, but I have no clue. I wasn’t diagnosed as a child, my ADHD was noticeable to one adult in my adulthood enough to mention it, and my experienced symptoms are much closer to autism (again as experienced by adults, not as behavior observed in children, although those diverge much less for me). But the things mentioned improving in the study are very much not what I’ve struggled with having ADHD as an adult, nor things for which I sought diagnosis or treatment. The way diagnosis and treatment saved my life was helping me manage crippling anxiety and helping me make chronic depression manageable. It’s possible that exploring a nutritional deficiency none of my doctors have found with supplements no one has studied for adult ADHD… it’s possible that would benefit me. It’s a very high risk proposition given I have meds which work for me and which present no side effects so negative I’d reconsider. Moreover I haven’t had a single medical professional raise this possibility and with good reason. My treatment is working. Even if an alternative treatment might be promising… why would any responsible doctor propose disrupting a persistently successful treatment plan? I don’t know why you’re so motivated to disabuse me of my effective medication, but you’ll have to do better than showing a study which made children more tolerable. I credit my life to the meds that I take now, and there’s very very little I could fault them for. Asking me to reconsider that is asking an AWFUL lot.
    - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
      You make me assumption that I’m trying to disabuse you of taking your medication. I’m not. I don’t care, take it if you want. But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you aredisabusing people of that choice. You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work, but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels? I get it, you don’t care, you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder. It’s just a treatment. I get it it works, until it doesn’t. I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again. So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do. That’s OK.
      - eyelidlessness 4y ago
        Responding to both your comments in one. > I mean you did not even bother to search for another paper. I most certainly did. The search results I got were primarily ads, and few clinical studies I found were, like the one you linked, far less bold in the results they claimed than your claim of a “cure”. > You make me assumption that I’m trying to disabuse you of taking your medication. I’m not. I don’t care, take it if you want. But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you aredisabusing people of that choice. Excuse me, how? > You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work The studies themselves don’t support your claim of a cure. > but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels? No, I haven’t been to a doctor since some person on the internet mentioned this a few days ago. I did have a scheduled psychiatrist appointment in that time, but had to reschedule because il out of state for a family medical emergency. > I get it, you don’t care I don’t know where you got that impression. I took the time to reply thoughtfully and, despite your impressions otherwise, to look for other studies more pertinent to my own experience. In my thoughtful response I expressed caution and the reasons for that caution, which you completely ignored. > you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder That’s right. And it’s important. It’s the reason I’m still alive. I’m cautious about upsetting treatment that works because I would very much like to remain alive. > I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again. I don’t know if you mean the disorder is new in the world (it’s not) or in me (it’s also not). > So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do. I don’t know where you got that impression. An open mind isn’t characterized by immediately accepting life changing “solutions” proposed by random people on the internet, regardless of whether they cite medical studies. I expressed an open mind, I said I’d consider giving it a try. > That’s OK. In your own words, I don’t believe you. You have talked past me and several others in this thread, and you don’t seem to want to accept anything other than a revelation that what I need is vitamins rather than the treatment that my doctor prescribes. You have even suggested that I’m preventing other people from treatment (or a “cure”) you think more appropriate simply because I haven’t dropped everything to try your preferred treatment. If this is how you “work with” other people who are hoping to treat their ADHD effectively, god help them. And it has nothing to do with the particular treatment, I felt the same way about my first psychiatrist who was just as zealous about stimulant treatment.
mtsr 4y ago
That is an interesting paper, as is the co-morbidity of ADHD with epilepsy that they cite. It's also hopeful for some people suffering from ADHD because it is suggestive of the possibility of a more complete treatment for some. However there's a general understanding of ADHD (and related disorders such as ASD) as a spectrum of conditions with multiple contributing factors. Depending on the person ADHD will manifest with more or less hyperactivity, distractability, working memory issues, and lacking emotional regulation (among other things). Different causes combine to give a somewhat amorphous disorder with a range of common symptoms. So adding a new treatment with fewer downsides (because stimulants can have a few) is great, especially as it might treat aspects of the disorder that aren't treated by stimulants. But this doesn't mean stimulants won't still be relevant in the future. There's there's also plenty of research showing specific dopamine receptor dysregulations as contributing to ADHD. See for example https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_Receptor_Expression_and_the_Pathogenesis_of_Attention-Deficit_Hyperactivity_Disorder_a_Scoping_Review_of_the_Literature https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_... So unless the research also shows that this is caused by pyridoxine metabolism problems, these hypotheses can both hold at the same time. Picking some paper that talks about different causes doesn't mean other causes aren't still relevant. It will probably be decades before we can definitively rule out contributing factors. PS It's generalizations like yours that are very stigmatizing towards stimulant use. We already know many people benefit from them enormously and significant numbers are not getting or taking them due to stigma.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  You are making a complicated when it’s effing simple. Just try taking high dose P5P. And probably zinc: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5 If you knew the metabolic pathways thus would be as clear as day. We need enzymes to make neurotransmitter and those enzymes need cofactors to work. These are the cofactors.
  - mtsr 4y ago
    If only things were generally so simple. While I'm all for more possible causes that are more easily treated, I’d hardly call this convincing evidence that all we need to treat is zinc deficiencies. But time will tell, as I hope these kinds of research continue.

You are not deficient in stimulants. So using them is not the answer. Instead, look to nutrition. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/

eyelidlessness 4y ago

Treatment with stimulants doesn’t treat deficiencies of stimulants. This is immediately obvious with patients who actually benefit from the meds, because they’re generally not stimulated by them. Treatment with many chemicals doesn’t treat deficiencies of those chemicals. In the case of stimulants for ADHD, they help regulate dopamine and norepinephrine intake. In practical terms, results of successful treatment include improved management of executive function, reduced social and sensory stress, and healthier sleep patterns. I can’t say what anyone else’s answer is, but stimulants saved my life because the impact of the things they helped me address were life threatening. Using stimulants as prescribed by my doctor was definitely an answer for me, and I am grateful for the life I kept intact because of that.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
Medications saved my life as well. That is not the point. The point is do you keep taking them and not look for the nutritional answer to your problem. If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants?
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  > If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants? Assuming you mean “if treating a B6 deficiency”, and assuming I had strong expectations that I could expect a cure, I’d consider giving it a try. I’d be cautious about any transition, as it could mean either significant side effects while still taking stimulants, or significant regression without them if the B6 treatment doesn’t work as hoped. But I don’t even have a strong expectation that I could expect equivalent or better management. The study you linked was conducted with children, and the conclusions based on observations of children’s behavior. Maybe that’s a good indicator that it’s helpful, but I have no clue. I wasn’t diagnosed as a child, my ADHD was noticeable to one adult in my adulthood enough to mention it, and my experienced symptoms are much closer to autism (again as experienced by adults, not as behavior observed in children, although those diverge much less for me). But the things mentioned improving in the study are very much not what I’ve struggled with having ADHD as an adult, nor things for which I sought diagnosis or treatment. The way diagnosis and treatment saved my life was helping me manage crippling anxiety and helping me make chronic depression manageable. It’s possible that exploring a nutritional deficiency none of my doctors have found with supplements no one has studied for adult ADHD… it’s possible that would benefit me. It’s a very high risk proposition given I have meds which work for me and which present no side effects so negative I’d reconsider. Moreover I haven’t had a single medical professional raise this possibility and with good reason. My treatment is working. Even if an alternative treatment might be promising… why would any responsible doctor propose disrupting a persistently successful treatment plan? I don’t know why you’re so motivated to disabuse me of my effective medication, but you’ll have to do better than showing a study which made children more tolerable. I credit my life to the meds that I take now, and there’s very very little I could fault them for. Asking me to reconsider that is asking an AWFUL lot.
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    You make me assumption that I’m trying to disabuse you of taking your medication. I’m not. I don’t care, take it if you want. But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you aredisabusing people of that choice. You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work, but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels? I get it, you don’t care, you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder. It’s just a treatment. I get it it works, until it doesn’t. I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again. So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do. That’s OK.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      Responding to both your comments in one. > I mean you did not even bother to search for another paper. I most certainly did. The search results I got were primarily ads, and few clinical studies I found were, like the one you linked, far less bold in the results they claimed than your claim of a “cure”. > You make me assumption that I’m trying to disabuse you of taking your medication. I’m not. I don’t care, take it if you want. But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you aredisabusing people of that choice. Excuse me, how? > You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work The studies themselves don’t support your claim of a cure. > but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels? No, I haven’t been to a doctor since some person on the internet mentioned this a few days ago. I did have a scheduled psychiatrist appointment in that time, but had to reschedule because il out of state for a family medical emergency. > I get it, you don’t care I don’t know where you got that impression. I took the time to reply thoughtfully and, despite your impressions otherwise, to look for other studies more pertinent to my own experience. In my thoughtful response I expressed caution and the reasons for that caution, which you completely ignored. > you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder That’s right. And it’s important. It’s the reason I’m still alive. I’m cautious about upsetting treatment that works because I would very much like to remain alive. > I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again. I don’t know if you mean the disorder is new in the world (it’s not) or in me (it’s also not). > So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do. I don’t know where you got that impression. An open mind isn’t characterized by immediately accepting life changing “solutions” proposed by random people on the internet, regardless of whether they cite medical studies. I expressed an open mind, I said I’d consider giving it a try. > That’s OK. In your own words, I don’t believe you. You have talked past me and several others in this thread, and you don’t seem to want to accept anything other than a revelation that what I need is vitamins rather than the treatment that my doctor prescribes. You have even suggested that I’m preventing other people from treatment (or a “cure”) you think more appropriate simply because I haven’t dropped everything to try your preferred treatment. If this is how you “work with” other people who are hoping to treat their ADHD effectively, god help them. And it has nothing to do with the particular treatment, I felt the same way about my first psychiatrist who was just as zealous about stimulant treatment.

mtsr 4y ago

That is an interesting paper, as is the co-morbidity of ADHD with epilepsy that they cite. It's also hopeful for some people suffering from ADHD because it is suggestive of the possibility of a more complete treatment for some. However there's a general understanding of ADHD (and related disorders such as ASD) as a spectrum of conditions with multiple contributing factors. Depending on the person ADHD will manifest with more or less hyperactivity, distractability, working memory issues, and lacking emotional regulation (among other things). Different causes combine to give a somewhat amorphous disorder with a range of common symptoms. So adding a new treatment with fewer downsides (because stimulants can have a few) is great, especially as it might treat aspects of the disorder that aren't treated by stimulants. But this doesn't mean stimulants won't still be relevant in the future. There's there's also plenty of research showing specific dopamine receptor dysregulations as contributing to ADHD. See for example https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_Receptor_Expression_and_the_Pathogenesis_of_Attention-Deficit_Hyperactivity_Disorder_a_Scoping_Review_of_the_Literature https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_... So unless the research also shows that this is caused by pyridoxine metabolism problems, these hypotheses can both hold at the same time. Picking some paper that talks about different causes doesn't mean other causes aren't still relevant. It will probably be decades before we can definitively rule out contributing factors. PS It's generalizations like yours that are very stigmatizing towards stimulant use. We already know many people benefit from them enormously and significant numbers are not getting or taking them due to stigma.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
You are making a complicated when it’s effing simple. Just try taking high dose P5P. And probably zinc: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5 If you knew the metabolic pathways thus would be as clear as day. We need enzymes to make neurotransmitter and those enzymes need cofactors to work. These are the cofactors.
- mtsr 4y ago
  If only things were generally so simple. While I'm all for more possible causes that are more easily treated, I’d hardly call this convincing evidence that all we need to treat is zinc deficiencies. But time will tell, as I hope these kinds of research continue.