5 ms·

For personal projects, sure. But good luck writing a medium to large sized app, full of business logic in Vanilla JS. The hate for JS frameworks is usually war

by zoover2020 4y ago

For personal projects, sure. But good luck writing a medium to large sized app, full of business logic in Vanilla JS. The hate for JS frameworks is usually warranted, in this case I think nuance is missing. It's also not as black and white as people paint it to be, IMO.

atoav 4y ago
In the professional projects I have done the majority would have been possible to do with HTML/CSS/JS. The only reason not do that was that customers typically need some sort of backend and that was back then just simpler to do by other means. But there is quite some projects where you don't even need that. Learning HTML/CSS/JS is a good idea as ultimately any framework or serverside code will interact with some combination of the three. Having a strong grasp of how HTML/CSS/JS work is the perfect foundation for learning something that runs serverside. And you get there by building projects that predominantly lean on the three. Whether they are private or professional, who cares as long as they are cool and someone learns something from it?
simion314 4y ago
My problem is with "magic" frameworks. For example angular hello worls is super duper simple. But then business apps become a giant pile of crap, the eprformance goes to shit and sometimes stuff that should work stops working. The issue is the magic, if use a sane library you can just run the code in debugger step by step and see what happens but with magic stuff you get a giant call stack with garbage that is impoosible to understand. So when I can I rip out magic and replace it with function calls , getters and setters. Maybe is my bad luck that I always have to work on prtojects created by others and all the time this others did it wrong. Nobody can convince me that angularjs1 is a framework designed by competent people with experience in GUIs, maybe the newer version are better if those buys learned on the job what they should have known from the beginning.
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  Do you feel React is overly magical? React was the first of these web frameworks that I was exposed to. I didn't have a ton of vanilla html/css/js experience when I first encountered React, but the fact that each component just returns some HTML is pretty unmagical to me. You could conceivably just use React (or, JSX really) to organize your app code in a pretty comprehensible way. I guess once you get into all the hooks and contexts and fancier stuff things might start to be a bit magical. But I like it a lot better than Angular, which I agree is very much overly magicked.
whostolemyhat 4y ago
> The hate for JS frameworks is usually warranted It's almost never warranted.
- mcread 4y ago
  So true, and hating JS is still a dogma that everyone has to assume ..
  - brigandish 4y ago
    You're suggesting that most of those that hate Javascript do so because someone told them they should and not because they've used it? From[1]: > In 2008 Crockford published a book announcing his discovery that Javascript, contrary to prevailing opinion, has good parts. He describes this as "heresy", and as "possibly the first important discovery of the 21st century", noting that it came as a "great surprise to the community of javascript developers, and to the world at large." He attributes the discovery to his having read the ECMAScript Standard, which he says "literally changed my life." He also notes that the specification document is of "extremely poor quality", "hard to read", "hard to understand", and says that the ECMA and the TC39 committee "should be deeply embarrassed". I own that book and I still hate Javascript (it's not the fault of the book). Is there another language with such a book? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_crockford#Opinions_on_Javascript https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_crockford#Opinions_on_...
    - achenet 4y ago
      C++ I think gets similar hate. Perl maybe, if you end up having to re-read some.
      - brigandish 4y ago
        I've definitely written Perl that someone has cursed at. Probably me!
    - hutzlibu 4y ago
      Well why do you hate javascript? There are many languages that I do not like, but I hate none, so I am curious for the reasons of that strong feeling?
austin-cheney 4y ago
Done: https://github.com/prettydiff/share-file-systems https://github.com/prettydiff/share-file-systems The hate for large frameworks is warranted by their poor performance and bloat while struggling to achieve simple objectives in the most challenging ways.

atoav 4y ago

In the professional projects I have done the majority would have been possible to do with HTML/CSS/JS. The only reason not do that was that customers typically need some sort of backend and that was back then just simpler to do by other means. But there is quite some projects where you don't even need that. Learning HTML/CSS/JS is a good idea as ultimately any framework or serverside code will interact with some combination of the three. Having a strong grasp of how HTML/CSS/JS work is the perfect foundation for learning something that runs serverside. And you get there by building projects that predominantly lean on the three. Whether they are private or professional, who cares as long as they are cool and someone learns something from it?

simion314 4y ago

My problem is with "magic" frameworks. For example angular hello worls is super duper simple. But then business apps become a giant pile of crap, the eprformance goes to shit and sometimes stuff that should work stops working. The issue is the magic, if use a sane library you can just run the code in debugger step by step and see what happens but with magic stuff you get a giant call stack with garbage that is impoosible to understand. So when I can I rip out magic and replace it with function calls , getters and setters. Maybe is my bad luck that I always have to work on prtojects created by others and all the time this others did it wrong. Nobody can convince me that angularjs1 is a framework designed by competent people with experience in GUIs, maybe the newer version are better if those buys learned on the job what they should have known from the beginning.

agentwiggles 4y ago
Do you feel React is overly magical? React was the first of these web frameworks that I was exposed to. I didn't have a ton of vanilla html/css/js experience when I first encountered React, but the fact that each component just returns some HTML is pretty unmagical to me. You could conceivably just use React (or, JSX really) to organize your app code in a pretty comprehensible way. I guess once you get into all the hooks and contexts and fancier stuff things might start to be a bit magical. But I like it a lot better than Angular, which I agree is very much overly magicked.

whostolemyhat 4y ago

> The hate for JS frameworks is usually warranted It's almost never warranted.

mcread 4y ago
So true, and hating JS is still a dogma that everyone has to assume ..
- brigandish 4y ago
  You're suggesting that most of those that hate Javascript do so because someone told them they should and not because they've used it? From[1]: > In 2008 Crockford published a book announcing his discovery that Javascript, contrary to prevailing opinion, has good parts. He describes this as "heresy", and as "possibly the first important discovery of the 21st century", noting that it came as a "great surprise to the community of javascript developers, and to the world at large." He attributes the discovery to his having read the ECMAScript Standard, which he says "literally changed my life." He also notes that the specification document is of "extremely poor quality", "hard to read", "hard to understand", and says that the ECMA and the TC39 committee "should be deeply embarrassed". I own that book and I still hate Javascript (it's not the fault of the book). Is there another language with such a book? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_crockford#Opinions_on_Javascript https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_crockford#Opinions_on_...
  - achenet 4y ago
    C++ I think gets similar hate. Perl maybe, if you end up having to re-read some.
    - brigandish 4y ago
      I've definitely written Perl that someone has cursed at. Probably me!
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    Well why do you hate javascript? There are many languages that I do not like, but I hate none, so I am curious for the reasons of that strong feeling?

austin-cheney 4y ago

Done: https://github.com/prettydiff/share-file-systems https://github.com/prettydiff/share-file-systems The hate for large frameworks is warranted by their poor performance and bloat while struggling to achieve simple objectives in the most challenging ways.