6 ms·

It’s not on you. An enormous amount of stigma surrounds the use of stimulant medication, even if it’s one of the oldest and most studied psychiatric meds there

by mtsr 4y ago

It’s not on you. An enormous amount of stigma surrounds the use of stimulant medication, even if it’s one of the oldest and most studied psychiatric meds there is. And the stigma is continuously reinforced by all the people who don’t need it abusing the meds. Sure, there’s also some risk for patients using them properly, but for them it does not compare to the sheer benefits provided by the meds.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
You are not deficient in stimulants. So using them is not the answer. Instead, look to nutrition. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  Treatment with stimulants doesn’t treat deficiencies of stimulants. This is immediately obvious with patients who actually benefit from the meds, because they’re generally not stimulated by them. Treatment with many chemicals doesn’t treat deficiencies of those chemicals. In the case of stimulants for ADHD, they help regulate dopamine and norepinephrine intake. In practical terms, results of successful treatment include improved management of executive function, reduced social and sensory stress, and healthier sleep patterns. I can’t say what anyone else’s answer is, but stimulants saved my life because the impact of the things they helped me address were life threatening. Using stimulants as prescribed by my doctor was definitely an answer for me, and I am grateful for the life I kept intact because of that.
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    Medications saved my life as well. That is not the point. The point is do you keep taking them and not look for the nutritional answer to your problem. If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants?
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      > If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants? Assuming you mean “if treating a B6 deficiency”, and assuming I had strong expectations that I could expect a cure, I’d consider giving it a try. I’d be cautious about any transition, as it could mean either significant side effects while still taking stimulants, or significant regression without them if the B6 treatment doesn’t work as hoped. But I don’t even have a strong expectation that I could expect equivalent or better management. The study you linked was conducted with children, and the conclusions based on observations of children’s behavior. Maybe that’s a good indicator that it’s helpful, but I have no clue. I wasn’t diagnosed as a child, my ADHD was noticeable to one adult in my adulthood enough to mention it, and my experienced symptoms are much closer to autism (again as experienced by adults, not as behavior observed in children, although those diverge much less for me). But the things mentioned improving in the study are very much not what I’ve struggled with having ADHD as an adult, nor things for which I sought diagnosis or treatment. The way diagnosis and treatment saved my life was helping me manage crippling anxiety and helping me make chronic depression manageable. It’s possible that exploring a nutritional deficiency none of my doctors have found with supplements no one has studied for adult ADHD… it’s possible that would benefit me. It’s a very high risk proposition given I have meds which work for me and which present no side effects so negative I’d reconsider. Moreover I haven’t had a single medical professional raise this possibility and with good reason. My treatment is working. Even if an alternative treatment might be promising… why would any responsible doctor propose disrupting a persistently successful treatment plan? I don’t know why you’re so motivated to disabuse me of my effective medication, but you’ll have to do better than showing a study which made children more tolerable. I credit my life to the meds that I take now, and there’s very very little I could fault them for. Asking me to reconsider that is asking an AWFUL lot.
      - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
        You make me assumption that I’m trying to disabuse you of taking your medication. I’m not. I don’t care, take it if you want. But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you aredisabusing people of that choice. You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work, but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels? I get it, you don’t care, you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder. It’s just a treatment. I get it it works, until it doesn’t. I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again. So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do. That’s OK.
- mtsr 4y ago
  That is an interesting paper, as is the co-morbidity of ADHD with epilepsy that they cite. It's also hopeful for some people suffering from ADHD because it is suggestive of the possibility of a more complete treatment for some. However there's a general understanding of ADHD (and related disorders such as ASD) as a spectrum of conditions with multiple contributing factors. Depending on the person ADHD will manifest with more or less hyperactivity, distractability, working memory issues, and lacking emotional regulation (among other things). Different causes combine to give a somewhat amorphous disorder with a range of common symptoms. So adding a new treatment with fewer downsides (because stimulants can have a few) is great, especially as it might treat aspects of the disorder that aren't treated by stimulants. But this doesn't mean stimulants won't still be relevant in the future. There's there's also plenty of research showing specific dopamine receptor dysregulations as contributing to ADHD. See for example https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_Receptor_Expression_and_the_Pathogenesis_of_Attention-Deficit_Hyperactivity_Disorder_a_Scoping_Review_of_the_Literature https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_... So unless the research also shows that this is caused by pyridoxine metabolism problems, these hypotheses can both hold at the same time. Picking some paper that talks about different causes doesn't mean other causes aren't still relevant. It will probably be decades before we can definitively rule out contributing factors. PS It's generalizations like yours that are very stigmatizing towards stimulant use. We already know many people benefit from them enormously and significant numbers are not getting or taking them due to stigma.
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    You are making a complicated when it’s effing simple. Just try taking high dose P5P. And probably zinc: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5 If you knew the metabolic pathways thus would be as clear as day. We need enzymes to make neurotransmitter and those enzymes need cofactors to work. These are the cofactors.
    - mtsr 4y ago
      If only things were generally so simple. While I'm all for more possible causes that are more easily treated, I’d hardly call this convincing evidence that all we need to treat is zinc deficiencies. But time will tell, as I hope these kinds of research continue.

by mtsr 4y ago

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

You are not deficient in stimulants. So using them is not the answer. Instead, look to nutrition. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/

eyelidlessness 4y ago
Treatment with stimulants doesn’t treat deficiencies of stimulants. This is immediately obvious with patients who actually benefit from the meds, because they’re generally not stimulated by them. Treatment with many chemicals doesn’t treat deficiencies of those chemicals. In the case of stimulants for ADHD, they help regulate dopamine and norepinephrine intake. In practical terms, results of successful treatment include improved management of executive function, reduced social and sensory stress, and healthier sleep patterns. I can’t say what anyone else’s answer is, but stimulants saved my life because the impact of the things they helped me address were life threatening. Using stimulants as prescribed by my doctor was definitely an answer for me, and I am grateful for the life I kept intact because of that.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  Medications saved my life as well. That is not the point. The point is do you keep taking them and not look for the nutritional answer to your problem. If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants?
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    > If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants? Assuming you mean “if treating a B6 deficiency”, and assuming I had strong expectations that I could expect a cure, I’d consider giving it a try. I’d be cautious about any transition, as it could mean either significant side effects while still taking stimulants, or significant regression without them if the B6 treatment doesn’t work as hoped. But I don’t even have a strong expectation that I could expect equivalent or better management. The study you linked was conducted with children, and the conclusions based on observations of children’s behavior. Maybe that’s a good indicator that it’s helpful, but I have no clue. I wasn’t diagnosed as a child, my ADHD was noticeable to one adult in my adulthood enough to mention it, and my experienced symptoms are much closer to autism (again as experienced by adults, not as behavior observed in children, although those diverge much less for me). But the things mentioned improving in the study are very much not what I’ve struggled with having ADHD as an adult, nor things for which I sought diagnosis or treatment. The way diagnosis and treatment saved my life was helping me manage crippling anxiety and helping me make chronic depression manageable. It’s possible that exploring a nutritional deficiency none of my doctors have found with supplements no one has studied for adult ADHD… it’s possible that would benefit me. It’s a very high risk proposition given I have meds which work for me and which present no side effects so negative I’d reconsider. Moreover I haven’t had a single medical professional raise this possibility and with good reason. My treatment is working. Even if an alternative treatment might be promising… why would any responsible doctor propose disrupting a persistently successful treatment plan? I don’t know why you’re so motivated to disabuse me of my effective medication, but you’ll have to do better than showing a study which made children more tolerable. I credit my life to the meds that I take now, and there’s very very little I could fault them for. Asking me to reconsider that is asking an AWFUL lot.
    - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
      You make me assumption that I’m trying to disabuse you of taking your medication. I’m not. I don’t care, take it if you want. But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you aredisabusing people of that choice. You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work, but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels? I get it, you don’t care, you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder. It’s just a treatment. I get it it works, until it doesn’t. I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again. So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do. That’s OK.
mtsr 4y ago
That is an interesting paper, as is the co-morbidity of ADHD with epilepsy that they cite. It's also hopeful for some people suffering from ADHD because it is suggestive of the possibility of a more complete treatment for some. However there's a general understanding of ADHD (and related disorders such as ASD) as a spectrum of conditions with multiple contributing factors. Depending on the person ADHD will manifest with more or less hyperactivity, distractability, working memory issues, and lacking emotional regulation (among other things). Different causes combine to give a somewhat amorphous disorder with a range of common symptoms. So adding a new treatment with fewer downsides (because stimulants can have a few) is great, especially as it might treat aspects of the disorder that aren't treated by stimulants. But this doesn't mean stimulants won't still be relevant in the future. There's there's also plenty of research showing specific dopamine receptor dysregulations as contributing to ADHD. See for example https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_Receptor_Expression_and_the_Pathogenesis_of_Attention-Deficit_Hyperactivity_Disorder_a_Scoping_Review_of_the_Literature https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_... So unless the research also shows that this is caused by pyridoxine metabolism problems, these hypotheses can both hold at the same time. Picking some paper that talks about different causes doesn't mean other causes aren't still relevant. It will probably be decades before we can definitively rule out contributing factors. PS It's generalizations like yours that are very stigmatizing towards stimulant use. We already know many people benefit from them enormously and significant numbers are not getting or taking them due to stigma.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  You are making a complicated when it’s effing simple. Just try taking high dose P5P. And probably zinc: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5 If you knew the metabolic pathways thus would be as clear as day. We need enzymes to make neurotransmitter and those enzymes need cofactors to work. These are the cofactors.
  - mtsr 4y ago
    If only things were generally so simple. While I'm all for more possible causes that are more easily treated, I’d hardly call this convincing evidence that all we need to treat is zinc deficiencies. But time will tell, as I hope these kinds of research continue.