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I'd rather have an FTX scandal than Tornado Cash. I'd rather someone does some fraud than actual funneling of money to terrorists, druglords, gangs, and other p

I'd rather have an FTX scandal than Tornado Cash. I'd rather someone does some fraud than actual funneling of money to terrorists, druglords, gangs, and other problematic organizations.

nailer 4y ago
Tornado Cash is private banking. The writer of the code did nothing wrong by writing it.
- leesalminen 4y ago
  Open source code should be considered protected speech. The fact that it’s not should scare the daylights out of any OSS contributor. Also, privacy should be a human right. If you disagree with the above, you might be a fascist.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    It's protected speech. What you do with it can be criminal. Code for an Arduino that moves a robotic arm is legal. Using it to pull a trigger and kill someone isn't.
    - leesalminen 4y ago
      Of course. Was the tornado cash person arrested for using the code in an illegal way or just for publishing the code?
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        We don't entirely know. The fact that the other Tornado Cash contributors weren't similarly arrested may be informative.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  He wasn't arrested for "writing the code", but for direct involvements (and making large sums of profit) for money laundering. Whether he is guilty of that: we'll see what comes up in the trail, but he certainly wasn't arrested "for writing code".
  - nailer 4y ago
    I have heard that too but it’s hard to know (either way) what he was arrested for as he hasn’t been charged after three months detention. The police statement is https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado-cash/ https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado... - it seems to say he facilitated money laundering. Which could mean simply writing code or could mean doing more. More info on https://www.notion.so/FreeAlex-campaign-1f8db0a2fdfc48b3b86aff1c3a3ef907 https://www.notion.so/FreeAlex-campaign-1f8db0a2fdfc48b3b86a... which is a horrible notion site with a strange and awful UI.
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
So can we expect also arrest of people from Binance, who were helping to bypass sanctions for Iran? https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/exclusive-crypto-exchange-binance-helped-iranian-firms-trade-8-billion-despite-2022-11-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/exclusive-crypto-ex...
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Whenever they stray into US or an ally's jurisdiction, I'd imagine. I suspect they're smart enough not to.
Guthur 4y ago
Wasn't FTX supporting war?
adynaton 4y ago
Username checks out (I'm sorry)
monero-xmr 4y ago
Encrypted messaging also helps terrorists, child sex abusers, arms dealers, and all manner of crime. It would be 100% safer if all messages were funneled through government servers for scanning. However, as a society a choice we made was to enable individuals to message secretly with each other over encrypted communications, even if there are significant and documented harms to society. Tornado Cash did not rob from 1 million retail customers, while FTX did. I think your argument is far too simple.
- data_maan 4y ago
  > It would be 100% safer if all messages were funneled through government servers for scanning. Uh... what?! You do know that if you break encryption for gov't you break it for the bad guys as well?... You do know that there are all kinds of nations that will throw you in prison if you hold the "wrong" opinions, which those opinions become known when they are funneled through the gov't servers?...
  - CuriousCosmic 4y ago
    You might want to re-read that. The comment was comparing privacy preserving transactions against privacy preserving messages to illustrate the point that both are essential technologies for society.
CuriousCosmic 4y ago
> I'd rather someone does some fraud than actual funneling of money to terrorists, druglords, gangs, and other problematic organizations. Considering that Tornado Cash implemented OFAC compliance and they were still banned would suggest to me that this isn't a fair take. Tornado Cash had long since blacklisted known accounts from sanctioned organisations and tried to be overwhelmingly transparent about the fact that the project was focused on providing privacy for normal people and complying with regulations and sanctions to the best of their ability. One of the major issues with the US in particular is that regulatory and enforcement agencies refuse to establish well defined guidelines that are compatible with digital ledger tech. You can have privacy preservation and regulatory compliance all at once via zero knowledge proofs (as an example solution) however regulatory agencies insist that organisations operate within a system that provides significantly weaker compliance guarantees while also eliminating any means for privacy. Tornado Cash tried to operate within that weaker system to the best of their ability and repeatedly reached out to officials in good faith to properly implement compliance. Despite that they were still sanctioned.

I'd rather have an FTX scandal than Tornado Cash. I'd rather someone does some fraud than actual funneling of money to terrorists, druglords, gangs, and other problematic organizations.

nailer 4y ago

Tornado Cash is private banking. The writer of the code did nothing wrong by writing it.

leesalminen 4y ago
Open source code should be considered protected speech. The fact that it’s not should scare the daylights out of any OSS contributor. Also, privacy should be a human right. If you disagree with the above, you might be a fascist.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  It's protected speech. What you do with it can be criminal. Code for an Arduino that moves a robotic arm is legal. Using it to pull a trigger and kill someone isn't.
  - leesalminen 4y ago
    Of course. Was the tornado cash person arrested for using the code in an illegal way or just for publishing the code?
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      We don't entirely know. The fact that the other Tornado Cash contributors weren't similarly arrested may be informative.
Beltalowda 4y ago
He wasn't arrested for "writing the code", but for direct involvements (and making large sums of profit) for money laundering. Whether he is guilty of that: we'll see what comes up in the trail, but he certainly wasn't arrested "for writing code".
- nailer 4y ago
  I have heard that too but it’s hard to know (either way) what he was arrested for as he hasn’t been charged after three months detention. The police statement is https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado-cash/ https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado... - it seems to say he facilitated money laundering. Which could mean simply writing code or could mean doing more. More info on https://www.notion.so/FreeAlex-campaign-1f8db0a2fdfc48b3b86aff1c3a3ef907 https://www.notion.so/FreeAlex-campaign-1f8db0a2fdfc48b3b86a... which is a horrible notion site with a strange and awful UI.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

So can we expect also arrest of people from Binance, who were helping to bypass sanctions for Iran? https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/exclusive-crypto-exchange-binance-helped-iranian-firms-trade-8-billion-despite-2022-11-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/exclusive-crypto-ex...

ceejayoz 4y ago
Whenever they stray into US or an ally's jurisdiction, I'd imagine. I suspect they're smart enough not to.

Guthur 4y ago

Wasn't FTX supporting war?

adynaton 4y ago

Username checks out (I'm sorry)

monero-xmr 4y ago

Encrypted messaging also helps terrorists, child sex abusers, arms dealers, and all manner of crime. It would be 100% safer if all messages were funneled through government servers for scanning. However, as a society a choice we made was to enable individuals to message secretly with each other over encrypted communications, even if there are significant and documented harms to society. Tornado Cash did not rob from 1 million retail customers, while FTX did. I think your argument is far too simple.

data_maan 4y ago
> It would be 100% safer if all messages were funneled through government servers for scanning. Uh... what?! You do know that if you break encryption for gov't you break it for the bad guys as well?... You do know that there are all kinds of nations that will throw you in prison if you hold the "wrong" opinions, which those opinions become known when they are funneled through the gov't servers?...
- CuriousCosmic 4y ago
  You might want to re-read that. The comment was comparing privacy preserving transactions against privacy preserving messages to illustrate the point that both are essential technologies for society.

CuriousCosmic 4y ago

> I'd rather someone does some fraud than actual funneling of money to terrorists, druglords, gangs, and other problematic organizations. Considering that Tornado Cash implemented OFAC compliance and they were still banned would suggest to me that this isn't a fair take. Tornado Cash had long since blacklisted known accounts from sanctioned organisations and tried to be overwhelmingly transparent about the fact that the project was focused on providing privacy for normal people and complying with regulations and sanctions to the best of their ability. One of the major issues with the US in particular is that regulatory and enforcement agencies refuse to establish well defined guidelines that are compatible with digital ledger tech. You can have privacy preservation and regulatory compliance all at once via zero knowledge proofs (as an example solution) however regulatory agencies insist that organisations operate within a system that provides significantly weaker compliance guarantees while also eliminating any means for privacy. Tornado Cash tried to operate within that weaker system to the best of their ability and repeatedly reached out to officials in good faith to properly implement compliance. Despite that they were still sanctioned.