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A programmer who helped create Tornado Cash rots in a Dutch jail cell (not charged, might I add) while SBF, Do Kwan, Elizabeth Holmes, and Trevor Milton still r

A programmer who helped create Tornado Cash rots in a Dutch jail cell (not charged, might I add) while SBF, Do Kwan, Elizabeth Holmes, and Trevor Milton still remain free. SBF is actually in a $30 million penthouse playing League of Legends. Clown world

delusional 4y ago
I'd rather have an FTX scandal than Tornado Cash. I'd rather someone does some fraud than actual funneling of money to terrorists, druglords, gangs, and other problematic organizations.
- nailer 4y ago
  Tornado Cash is private banking. The writer of the code did nothing wrong by writing it.
  - leesalminen 4y ago
    Open source code should be considered protected speech. The fact that it’s not should scare the daylights out of any OSS contributor. Also, privacy should be a human right. If you disagree with the above, you might be a fascist.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      It's protected speech. What you do with it can be criminal. Code for an Arduino that moves a robotic arm is legal. Using it to pull a trigger and kill someone isn't.
      - leesalminen 4y ago
        Of course. Was the tornado cash person arrested for using the code in an illegal way or just for publishing the code?
        ceejayoz 4y ago
        We don't entirely know. The fact that the other Tornado Cash contributors weren't similarly arrested may be informative.
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    He wasn't arrested for "writing the code", but for direct involvements (and making large sums of profit) for money laundering. Whether he is guilty of that: we'll see what comes up in the trail, but he certainly wasn't arrested "for writing code".
    - nailer 4y ago
      I have heard that too but it’s hard to know (either way) what he was arrested for as he hasn’t been charged after three months detention. The police statement is https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado-cash/ https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado... - it seems to say he facilitated money laundering. Which could mean simply writing code or could mean doing more. More info on https://www.notion.so/FreeAlex-campaign-1f8db0a2fdfc48b3b86aff1c3a3ef907 https://www.notion.so/FreeAlex-campaign-1f8db0a2fdfc48b3b86a... which is a horrible notion site with a strange and awful UI.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  So can we expect also arrest of people from Binance, who were helping to bypass sanctions for Iran? https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/exclusive-crypto-exchange-binance-helped-iranian-firms-trade-8-billion-despite-2022-11-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/exclusive-crypto-ex...
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Whenever they stray into US or an ally's jurisdiction, I'd imagine. I suspect they're smart enough not to.
- Guthur 4y ago
  Wasn't FTX supporting war?
- adynaton 4y ago
  Username checks out (I'm sorry)
- monero-xmr 4y ago
  Encrypted messaging also helps terrorists, child sex abusers, arms dealers, and all manner of crime. It would be 100% safer if all messages were funneled through government servers for scanning. However, as a society a choice we made was to enable individuals to message secretly with each other over encrypted communications, even if there are significant and documented harms to society. Tornado Cash did not rob from 1 million retail customers, while FTX did. I think your argument is far too simple.
  - data_maan 4y ago
    > It would be 100% safer if all messages were funneled through government servers for scanning. Uh... what?! You do know that if you break encryption for gov't you break it for the bad guys as well?... You do know that there are all kinds of nations that will throw you in prison if you hold the "wrong" opinions, which those opinions become known when they are funneled through the gov't servers?...
    - CuriousCosmic 4y ago
      You might want to re-read that. The comment was comparing privacy preserving transactions against privacy preserving messages to illustrate the point that both are essential technologies for society.
- CuriousCosmic 4y ago
  > I'd rather someone does some fraud than actual funneling of money to terrorists, druglords, gangs, and other problematic organizations. Considering that Tornado Cash implemented OFAC compliance and they were still banned would suggest to me that this isn't a fair take. Tornado Cash had long since blacklisted known accounts from sanctioned organisations and tried to be overwhelmingly transparent about the fact that the project was focused on providing privacy for normal people and complying with regulations and sanctions to the best of their ability. One of the major issues with the US in particular is that regulatory and enforcement agencies refuse to establish well defined guidelines that are compatible with digital ledger tech. You can have privacy preservation and regulatory compliance all at once via zero knowledge proofs (as an example solution) however regulatory agencies insist that organisations operate within a system that provides significantly weaker compliance guarantees while also eliminating any means for privacy. Tornado Cash tried to operate within that weaker system to the best of their ability and repeatedly reached out to officials in good faith to properly implement compliance. Despite that they were still sanctioned.
boeingUH60 4y ago
On the bright side, Holmes and Milton have been convicted and will be sentenced…Holmes’ sentencing is barely two days away.
- simonebrunozzi 4y ago
  AFAIK, Milton managed to cash out a lot of money, and even with a conviction, he will have a very comfortable "economic" life irrespective of what he will do next.
wollsmoth 4y ago
Holmes is getting sentenced this week. It took years to get there. This isn't going to happen overnight.
- tester756 4y ago
  Interesting
- marricks 4y ago
  > This isn't going to happen overnight What isn't going to happen overnight, justice? A fairer world? I don't think a fairer world is on its way, I wish it was but the powerful won't be held accountable because people simply don't have the power to hold them accountable. We simply don't live in a just world.
  - mcgannon2007 4y ago
    Overnight "justice" precludes due-process which is necessary for a fairer world.
  - wollsmoth 4y ago
    Yeah, life isn't fair. I have a wfh job software engineering in my PJs while some people need to spend their lives doing hard labor in the sun. Holmes is probably going to prison. Idk what's going to happen with SBF, but to prosecute you need evidence and there's a process.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- xur17 4y ago
  Why did it happen overnight for the programmer that helped create Tornado cash then?
  - loeg 4y ago
    It would be helpful to get the facts straight: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33630936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33630936
ravenstine 4y ago
One person is a threat to multinational regal order and the other benefits it. That's the difference. Not clown world so much as the world isn't what the 20th century told us it was.
game_the0ry 4y ago
Agreed, and I am a fan of your user name.
pastor_bob 4y ago
The crypto community begged the regulators to stay out of it and now they're crying about getting scammed. I am lucky enough to live in New York, so even when tempted, I couldn't partake in this charade without trying to find a bunch of shady loopholes. But as for the others, I guess you just can't win.
mcast 4y ago
It helps to have rich and connected parents, it also helps even more to donate millions to politician's campaigns.
arcticbull 4y ago
They should all be in prison bud and they’ll get their turn - the wheels of justice grind slow but they grind exceedingly fine. To avoid bringing them in without a charge yet, which is one of your main objections, the authorities are preparing their cases before arrest. And coordinating with many different parties, governments and police forces can take a long time. There’s no one “international police” and each nation has to coordinate - and acts at its own cadence.
- TremendousJudge 4y ago
  They grind at different speeds depending on who you are. Have the wrong skin color at the wrong time and the wheels of justice will sentence you to execution you on the spot, no evidence, case, or trial necessary.
peterpost2 4y ago
About the programmer in a dutch cell: that is not true, he is in "voorarrest" which is in an arrest house not in a jail cell. Maximum time for that is a 110 days(depending on the complexity of the case). And yes he is not charged but he has seen a judge who has heard both sides and decided there was a strong enough case to hold him there( which is quite rare i might add and generally only happens for severe cases).
- _dain_ 4y ago
  we would laugh at this kind of dissembling gobbledegook if it came from a nonwestern country. the dutch need to charge him with something or release him. 110 days is preposterous.
  - peterpost2 4y ago
    110 days is very long yes. Note though that its still less than plenty of other European countries.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
loeg 4y ago
The wheels of justice grind slowly. Holmes will see real prison soon. Do Kwan is on the lam. When he's caught, he will do time. SBF will almost certainly do time. FTX only imploded this week.

delusional 4y ago

I'd rather have an FTX scandal than Tornado Cash. I'd rather someone does some fraud than actual funneling of money to terrorists, druglords, gangs, and other problematic organizations.

nailer 4y ago
Tornado Cash is private banking. The writer of the code did nothing wrong by writing it.
- leesalminen 4y ago
  Open source code should be considered protected speech. The fact that it’s not should scare the daylights out of any OSS contributor. Also, privacy should be a human right. If you disagree with the above, you might be a fascist.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    It's protected speech. What you do with it can be criminal. Code for an Arduino that moves a robotic arm is legal. Using it to pull a trigger and kill someone isn't.
    - leesalminen 4y ago
      Of course. Was the tornado cash person arrested for using the code in an illegal way or just for publishing the code?
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        We don't entirely know. The fact that the other Tornado Cash contributors weren't similarly arrested may be informative.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  He wasn't arrested for "writing the code", but for direct involvements (and making large sums of profit) for money laundering. Whether he is guilty of that: we'll see what comes up in the trail, but he certainly wasn't arrested "for writing code".
  - nailer 4y ago
    I have heard that too but it’s hard to know (either way) what he was arrested for as he hasn’t been charged after three months detention. The police statement is https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado-cash/ https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado... - it seems to say he facilitated money laundering. Which could mean simply writing code or could mean doing more. More info on https://www.notion.so/FreeAlex-campaign-1f8db0a2fdfc48b3b86aff1c3a3ef907 https://www.notion.so/FreeAlex-campaign-1f8db0a2fdfc48b3b86a... which is a horrible notion site with a strange and awful UI.
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
So can we expect also arrest of people from Binance, who were helping to bypass sanctions for Iran? https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/exclusive-crypto-exchange-binance-helped-iranian-firms-trade-8-billion-despite-2022-11-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/exclusive-crypto-ex...
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Whenever they stray into US or an ally's jurisdiction, I'd imagine. I suspect they're smart enough not to.
Guthur 4y ago
Wasn't FTX supporting war?
adynaton 4y ago
Username checks out (I'm sorry)
monero-xmr 4y ago
Encrypted messaging also helps terrorists, child sex abusers, arms dealers, and all manner of crime. It would be 100% safer if all messages were funneled through government servers for scanning. However, as a society a choice we made was to enable individuals to message secretly with each other over encrypted communications, even if there are significant and documented harms to society. Tornado Cash did not rob from 1 million retail customers, while FTX did. I think your argument is far too simple.
- data_maan 4y ago
  > It would be 100% safer if all messages were funneled through government servers for scanning. Uh... what?! You do know that if you break encryption for gov't you break it for the bad guys as well?... You do know that there are all kinds of nations that will throw you in prison if you hold the "wrong" opinions, which those opinions become known when they are funneled through the gov't servers?...
  - CuriousCosmic 4y ago
    You might want to re-read that. The comment was comparing privacy preserving transactions against privacy preserving messages to illustrate the point that both are essential technologies for society.
CuriousCosmic 4y ago
> I'd rather someone does some fraud than actual funneling of money to terrorists, druglords, gangs, and other problematic organizations. Considering that Tornado Cash implemented OFAC compliance and they were still banned would suggest to me that this isn't a fair take. Tornado Cash had long since blacklisted known accounts from sanctioned organisations and tried to be overwhelmingly transparent about the fact that the project was focused on providing privacy for normal people and complying with regulations and sanctions to the best of their ability. One of the major issues with the US in particular is that regulatory and enforcement agencies refuse to establish well defined guidelines that are compatible with digital ledger tech. You can have privacy preservation and regulatory compliance all at once via zero knowledge proofs (as an example solution) however regulatory agencies insist that organisations operate within a system that provides significantly weaker compliance guarantees while also eliminating any means for privacy. Tornado Cash tried to operate within that weaker system to the best of their ability and repeatedly reached out to officials in good faith to properly implement compliance. Despite that they were still sanctioned.

boeingUH60 4y ago

On the bright side, Holmes and Milton have been convicted and will be sentenced…Holmes’ sentencing is barely two days away.

simonebrunozzi 4y ago
AFAIK, Milton managed to cash out a lot of money, and even with a conviction, he will have a very comfortable "economic" life irrespective of what he will do next.

wollsmoth 4y ago

Holmes is getting sentenced this week. It took years to get there. This isn't going to happen overnight.

tester756 4y ago
Interesting
marricks 4y ago
> This isn't going to happen overnight What isn't going to happen overnight, justice? A fairer world? I don't think a fairer world is on its way, I wish it was but the powerful won't be held accountable because people simply don't have the power to hold them accountable. We simply don't live in a just world.
- mcgannon2007 4y ago
  Overnight "justice" precludes due-process which is necessary for a fairer world.
- wollsmoth 4y ago
  Yeah, life isn't fair. I have a wfh job software engineering in my PJs while some people need to spend their lives doing hard labor in the sun. Holmes is probably going to prison. Idk what's going to happen with SBF, but to prosecute you need evidence and there's a process.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
xur17 4y ago
Why did it happen overnight for the programmer that helped create Tornado cash then?
- loeg 4y ago
  It would be helpful to get the facts straight: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33630936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33630936

ravenstine 4y ago

One person is a threat to multinational regal order and the other benefits it. That's the difference. Not clown world so much as the world isn't what the 20th century told us it was.

game_the0ry 4y ago

Agreed, and I am a fan of your user name.

pastor_bob 4y ago

The crypto community begged the regulators to stay out of it and now they're crying about getting scammed. I am lucky enough to live in New York, so even when tempted, I couldn't partake in this charade without trying to find a bunch of shady loopholes. But as for the others, I guess you just can't win.

mcast 4y ago

It helps to have rich and connected parents, it also helps even more to donate millions to politician's campaigns.

arcticbull 4y ago

They should all be in prison bud and they’ll get their turn - the wheels of justice grind slow but they grind exceedingly fine. To avoid bringing them in without a charge yet, which is one of your main objections, the authorities are preparing their cases before arrest. And coordinating with many different parties, governments and police forces can take a long time. There’s no one “international police” and each nation has to coordinate - and acts at its own cadence.

TremendousJudge 4y ago
They grind at different speeds depending on who you are. Have the wrong skin color at the wrong time and the wheels of justice will sentence you to execution you on the spot, no evidence, case, or trial necessary.

peterpost2 4y ago

About the programmer in a dutch cell: that is not true, he is in "voorarrest" which is in an arrest house not in a jail cell. Maximum time for that is a 110 days(depending on the complexity of the case). And yes he is not charged but he has seen a judge who has heard both sides and decided there was a strong enough case to hold him there( which is quite rare i might add and generally only happens for severe cases).

_dain_ 4y ago
we would laugh at this kind of dissembling gobbledegook if it came from a nonwestern country. the dutch need to charge him with something or release him. 110 days is preposterous.
- peterpost2 4y ago
  110 days is very long yes. Note though that its still less than plenty of other European countries.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

loeg 4y ago

The wheels of justice grind slowly. Holmes will see real prison soon. Do Kwan is on the lam. When he's caught, he will do time. SBF will almost certainly do time. FTX only imploded this week.