4 ms·

I really wish this surprised me. The number of people who completely understand the stack they are working on is shrinking, even as the size of the stack grows.

I really wish this surprised me. The number of people who completely understand the stack they are working on is shrinking, even as the size of the stack grows. The power of computing is such that every organization on the planet is forced to lower the bar to get people who are marginally competent, even if they lack attention detail and cannot be relied on to solve problems of this sort. This kind of leak is the result.

pipeline_peak 4y ago
In a world where all the problems are wrapped in containers and ever increasing bloat, it takes a lot of discipline to understand the stack, if that’s even the proper term anymore.
- ticviking 4y ago
  Even just understanding "the stack" if you're using a cheap Linux VM and admining it directly is a heavy lift for most devs.
andrewxdiamond 4y ago
I don’t think there are any people who understand the full stack. I don’t think anyone like that has existed in computing in a very long time. It’s truly impossible for a single human to actually understand the physics of electronics, the world of CPU micro-architecture, packet shuffling network equipment, the nuance of CSS, and the never ending complexity of UI/UX design. The only way this statement could be accurate is if you arbitrarily start cutting parts of the “stack” out.
- userbinator 4y ago
  If "full stack" means electronics up to JS, then there are probably quite a few people who can work at all those levels. Although a minority, at least they can understand a "fuller" stack than most, unfortunately.
- dwheeler 4y ago
  I disagree, it takes lots of time but it is possible. Personal example: I have an electronics engineering degree that was 1 semester short of a physics degree, so I learned quantum mechanics, electromagnetic field theory, transistors, and how to create a CPU (I even created a CPU out of simple gates and way too much wire wrapping). I love computer software, so I learned assembly, how to write compilers and operating systems, and libraries. I have configured network hardware and written network software at various levels. I've also used CSS and implemented UI/UX. I've written code in many programming languages, including JavaScript, Python, C, C++, Java, Ruby, Rust, Common Lisp, and Scheme. I eventually got a Computer Science degree as well. None of these things are magic, and the info is relatively easy to get. You simply have to keep learning and be willing to try new things. It can be fun, too. Yes, today it can be helpful to specialize at any particular time in your life. But I think it's best to use that as a launching pad to branch out.
  - ajdoingnothing 4y ago
    Jack of all trades, master of none. I don't think it's bad at all: at least you can specialise at something (quicker) whenever the need arises.
    - dwheeler 4y ago
      It's relatively easy to learn a new language (for example) when you think, "this is like x, this is like Y, etc." I guess my key point is that you always need to keep learning, and don't box yourself in too much. Ideas from elsewhere will show up... being aware of them makes it easier to use them and be ready for them.
cmeacham98 4y ago
I dispute this: I do not think you need to understand the whole stack to know using what effectively is "god mode" access is bad practice. Even if I pretend I don't know anything about AWS, if somebody handed me credentials with access called "FullAdminAccess" and told me to use them for my little script that only needs read-only access to S3 I would be extremely skeptical. The reality is that the culture at Infosys seems to place zero value on security of customer data.
- ashirviskas 4y ago
  >Even if I pretend I don't know anything about AWS, if somebody handed me credentials with access called "FullAdminAccess" and told me to use them for my little script that only needs read-only access to S3 I would be extremely skeptical. If you ask for an access key for your little script and get one, you usually only check if it works for your case and not always check if it has any other access, so I can easily see it happening without proper access controls.
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    It might not necessarily be the developer who's at fault, my point is more that somebody in the chain knew the request was for S3 read access and the key was for FullAdminAccess. At my job the alarm bells would be ringing and they would bring this up, but Infosys doesn't seem to have a culture that promotes that kind of security awareness.
  - ticviking 4y ago
    I agree, but that tells me you are much more detail oriented than many developers I've worked with. Most devs at the 70-100k a year range are phoning it in 9-5 and only check exactly the boxes a PM and QA person make them check. I very rarely see developers who are in the standard deviation below median make that kind of check. These are good productive developers who get lots of tickets done.

pipeline_peak 4y ago

In a world where all the problems are wrapped in containers and ever increasing bloat, it takes a lot of discipline to understand the stack, if that’s even the proper term anymore.

ticviking 4y ago
Even just understanding "the stack" if you're using a cheap Linux VM and admining it directly is a heavy lift for most devs.

andrewxdiamond 4y ago

I don’t think there are any people who understand the full stack. I don’t think anyone like that has existed in computing in a very long time. It’s truly impossible for a single human to actually understand the physics of electronics, the world of CPU micro-architecture, packet shuffling network equipment, the nuance of CSS, and the never ending complexity of UI/UX design. The only way this statement could be accurate is if you arbitrarily start cutting parts of the “stack” out.

userbinator 4y ago
If "full stack" means electronics up to JS, then there are probably quite a few people who can work at all those levels. Although a minority, at least they can understand a "fuller" stack than most, unfortunately.
dwheeler 4y ago
I disagree, it takes lots of time but it is possible. Personal example: I have an electronics engineering degree that was 1 semester short of a physics degree, so I learned quantum mechanics, electromagnetic field theory, transistors, and how to create a CPU (I even created a CPU out of simple gates and way too much wire wrapping). I love computer software, so I learned assembly, how to write compilers and operating systems, and libraries. I have configured network hardware and written network software at various levels. I've also used CSS and implemented UI/UX. I've written code in many programming languages, including JavaScript, Python, C, C++, Java, Ruby, Rust, Common Lisp, and Scheme. I eventually got a Computer Science degree as well. None of these things are magic, and the info is relatively easy to get. You simply have to keep learning and be willing to try new things. It can be fun, too. Yes, today it can be helpful to specialize at any particular time in your life. But I think it's best to use that as a launching pad to branch out.
- ajdoingnothing 4y ago
  Jack of all trades, master of none. I don't think it's bad at all: at least you can specialise at something (quicker) whenever the need arises.
  - dwheeler 4y ago
    It's relatively easy to learn a new language (for example) when you think, "this is like x, this is like Y, etc." I guess my key point is that you always need to keep learning, and don't box yourself in too much. Ideas from elsewhere will show up... being aware of them makes it easier to use them and be ready for them.

cmeacham98 4y ago

I dispute this: I do not think you need to understand the whole stack to know using what effectively is "god mode" access is bad practice. Even if I pretend I don't know anything about AWS, if somebody handed me credentials with access called "FullAdminAccess" and told me to use them for my little script that only needs read-only access to S3 I would be extremely skeptical. The reality is that the culture at Infosys seems to place zero value on security of customer data.

ashirviskas 4y ago
>Even if I pretend I don't know anything about AWS, if somebody handed me credentials with access called "FullAdminAccess" and told me to use them for my little script that only needs read-only access to S3 I would be extremely skeptical. If you ask for an access key for your little script and get one, you usually only check if it works for your case and not always check if it has any other access, so I can easily see it happening without proper access controls.
- cmeacham98 4y ago
  It might not necessarily be the developer who's at fault, my point is more that somebody in the chain knew the request was for S3 read access and the key was for FullAdminAccess. At my job the alarm bells would be ringing and they would bring this up, but Infosys doesn't seem to have a culture that promotes that kind of security awareness.
- ticviking 4y ago
  I agree, but that tells me you are much more detail oriented than many developers I've worked with. Most devs at the 70-100k a year range are phoning it in 9-5 and only check exactly the boxes a PM and QA person make them check. I very rarely see developers who are in the standard deviation below median make that kind of check. These are good productive developers who get lots of tickets done.