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Full of misinformation. > They only verify BTC and ETH Click the link and you see this isn't true: "ADA ADA.S BTC BTC.M DOT DOT.S DOT.P etc etc" > they don't

Full of misinformation. > They only verify BTC and ETH Click the link and you see this isn't true: "ADA ADA.S BTC BTC.M DOT DOT.S DOT.P etc etc" > they don't audit liabilities at all All liabilities were verified by the auditors and included in the merkle tree, and as mentioned, all users can independently verify that their specific liabilities are present. What more would you expect? > the audit they did last December was the second in 8 years Their most recent audit was end of Q2 this year. They do audits semi-annually.

karpierz 4y ago
> All liabilities were verified by the auditors and included in the merkle tree, and as mentioned, all users can independently verify that their specific liabilities are present. What more would you expect? Where in the report do they verify off-chain liabilities?
- throwup 4y ago
  I'm still not quite sure you're after, but I guess it would be this quote on page 3: > 14) Compare the total liabilities from the Client Liability Report extracted from Kraken’s production database as observed within Procedure 5 to the total assets controlled by the Kraken custodied addresses (the “In-Kind Assets”) as of the specified date and time of the assessment time and calculate the collateralization ratio based on the In-Kind Asset-to-Client Liability mapping provided by Kraken Management
  - karpierz 4y ago
    That's measuring how much they owe clients (IE, deposits) against how much crypto they hold (IE, the crypto in wallets they hold). That doesn't at all capture the kinds of liabilities I'm asking about, which is debt external to the blockchain. Ex: I am Kraken. Someone deposits 1 BTC with me. I then sign a contract with someone else saying "You give me 1 BTC now, I will give you 1.2 BTC in a year". I then sell 1 BTC. In my wallet, I will have 1 BTC, exactly matching my client liabilities. But my total liability is 2.2 BTC. And if those contracts start calling in early (IE, margin calls), I'll end up in a liquidity crisis. Or more simply, what if Kraken just uses the BTC as collateral for normal loans from a bank? If they fail to pay them, then they'll fork over the client BTC.
    - throwup 4y ago
      You're right, there is no way to cryptographically prove that there are no contracts external to the blockchain. The audit is from a purely "not your keys, not your coins" perspective. And there's no way to prove they won't go get some USD loans tomorrow either, since you can't cryptographically prove the future. Your defense against these tail risks is to remember, "not your keys, not your coins", and self-custody when you're not actively exchanging. In the end you do have to hope that the < 1 hour it takes you to exchange your coins and transfer them back to your own wallet doesn't overlap with the moment they decide to torpedo their 10+ year old business with no prior warning or red flags. But these are infinitesimally small tail risks.
      - karpierz 4y ago
        > You're right, there is no way to cryptographically prove that there are no contracts external to the blockchain. But there is a very easy way to prove that there are not contracts external to the blockchain. That's the whole point of an audit. And it's very telling that they don't want their books audited, but repeatedly point to a clearly incomplete (from the perspective of someone who is concerned that the business might go under) as proof of solvency.
        throwup 4y ago
        You have a point, but I think you're underestimating how "very easy" of a process an audit is. It's a mountain of time-consuming work for everyone involved. Their audits are encompassing more and more each time. They've talked about wanting to go public, at which point they would need to disclose everything quarterly, so I think it's likely they'll work their way up to your standards one day. But even if I'm wrong, if you keep your keys to yourself, none of this matters.
DebtDeflation 4y ago
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220203005576/en/Kraken-Launches-Proof-of-Reserves-Audits-Allowing-Clients-to-Verify-Crypto-Balances https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220203005576/en/Kra... >Administered by Armanino LLP, the Proof of Reserves audit is the second of its kind conducted on our exchange since 2014, and it affirms that more than $19 billion worth of client bitcoin and ether is safely – and provably – on our platform. This includes the $3.5 billion worth of ether held in Kraken’s secure on-chain staking service, the industry’s leading ETH2 validator. Though the audit covers just two of the over 100 assets available for trading on our exchange, it adheres to, and seeks to advance, recommended standards for new cryptographic audits that we hope will become widely embraced in the digital asset sector.
- throwup 4y ago
  Come on man. That's an old article. It was true of the audit being reported on at the time, but their most recent audit was more comprehensive. Again, just open the links I posted if you want to see how things have changed since then.
  - DebtDeflation 4y ago
    Ok, looks like there was another "audit" done in August, where they did verify the existence of additional tokens. Nevertheless, from the most recent "audit" report: >"We were not engaged to and did not conduct an examination or review engagement, the objective of which would be the expression of an opinion or conclusion, respectively, related to the platform account liabilities and asset balances represented by Kraken. Accordingly, we do not express such an opinion or conclusion. Had we performed additional procedures, other matters might have come to our attention that would have been reported." So once again, they're not saying anything al all about Kraken's overall assets or liabilities, merely confirming that the customer accounts have the correct number of coins in them at a point in time.

karpierz 4y ago

> All liabilities were verified by the auditors and included in the merkle tree, and as mentioned, all users can independently verify that their specific liabilities are present. What more would you expect? Where in the report do they verify off-chain liabilities?

throwup 4y ago
I'm still not quite sure you're after, but I guess it would be this quote on page 3: > 14) Compare the total liabilities from the Client Liability Report extracted from Kraken’s production database as observed within Procedure 5 to the total assets controlled by the Kraken custodied addresses (the “In-Kind Assets”) as of the specified date and time of the assessment time and calculate the collateralization ratio based on the In-Kind Asset-to-Client Liability mapping provided by Kraken Management
- karpierz 4y ago
  That's measuring how much they owe clients (IE, deposits) against how much crypto they hold (IE, the crypto in wallets they hold). That doesn't at all capture the kinds of liabilities I'm asking about, which is debt external to the blockchain. Ex: I am Kraken. Someone deposits 1 BTC with me. I then sign a contract with someone else saying "You give me 1 BTC now, I will give you 1.2 BTC in a year". I then sell 1 BTC. In my wallet, I will have 1 BTC, exactly matching my client liabilities. But my total liability is 2.2 BTC. And if those contracts start calling in early (IE, margin calls), I'll end up in a liquidity crisis. Or more simply, what if Kraken just uses the BTC as collateral for normal loans from a bank? If they fail to pay them, then they'll fork over the client BTC.
  - throwup 4y ago
    You're right, there is no way to cryptographically prove that there are no contracts external to the blockchain. The audit is from a purely "not your keys, not your coins" perspective. And there's no way to prove they won't go get some USD loans tomorrow either, since you can't cryptographically prove the future. Your defense against these tail risks is to remember, "not your keys, not your coins", and self-custody when you're not actively exchanging. In the end you do have to hope that the < 1 hour it takes you to exchange your coins and transfer them back to your own wallet doesn't overlap with the moment they decide to torpedo their 10+ year old business with no prior warning or red flags. But these are infinitesimally small tail risks.
    - karpierz 4y ago
      > You're right, there is no way to cryptographically prove that there are no contracts external to the blockchain. But there is a very easy way to prove that there are not contracts external to the blockchain. That's the whole point of an audit. And it's very telling that they don't want their books audited, but repeatedly point to a clearly incomplete (from the perspective of someone who is concerned that the business might go under) as proof of solvency.
      - throwup 4y ago
        You have a point, but I think you're underestimating how "very easy" of a process an audit is. It's a mountain of time-consuming work for everyone involved. Their audits are encompassing more and more each time. They've talked about wanting to go public, at which point they would need to disclose everything quarterly, so I think it's likely they'll work their way up to your standards one day. But even if I'm wrong, if you keep your keys to yourself, none of this matters.

DebtDeflation 4y ago

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220203005576/en/Kraken-Launches-Proof-of-Reserves-Audits-Allowing-Clients-to-Verify-Crypto-Balances https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220203005576/en/Kra... >Administered by Armanino LLP, the Proof of Reserves audit is the second of its kind conducted on our exchange since 2014, and it affirms that more than $19 billion worth of client bitcoin and ether is safely – and provably – on our platform. This includes the $3.5 billion worth of ether held in Kraken’s secure on-chain staking service, the industry’s leading ETH2 validator. Though the audit covers just two of the over 100 assets available for trading on our exchange, it adheres to, and seeks to advance, recommended standards for new cryptographic audits that we hope will become widely embraced in the digital asset sector.

throwup 4y ago
Come on man. That's an old article. It was true of the audit being reported on at the time, but their most recent audit was more comprehensive. Again, just open the links I posted if you want to see how things have changed since then.
- DebtDeflation 4y ago
  Ok, looks like there was another "audit" done in August, where they did verify the existence of additional tokens. Nevertheless, from the most recent "audit" report: >"We were not engaged to and did not conduct an examination or review engagement, the objective of which would be the expression of an opinion or conclusion, respectively, related to the platform account liabilities and asset balances represented by Kraken. Accordingly, we do not express such an opinion or conclusion. Had we performed additional procedures, other matters might have come to our attention that would have been reported." So once again, they're not saying anything al all about Kraken's overall assets or liabilities, merely confirming that the customer accounts have the correct number of coins in them at a point in time.