4 ms·

E-bike batteries have caused 200 fires in New York: ‘Everyone’s scared’

21 points by elorant 4y ago

josefresco 4y ago
"Each fire happened, they say it’s an e-bike, but we don’t know which one it is" Sounds fishy. How do we even know these were e-bike fires?
- Kon-Peki 4y ago
  The person you are quoting is asking the fire department to do extra work, not questioning the correctness of the fire department's conclusions. The answers he is looking for could just as easily be collected by his group, he just wants the taxpayers to do it for him.
  - josefresco 4y ago
    > The person you are quoting is asking the fire department to do extra work, not questioning the correctness of the fire department's conclusions. Correct. I'm saying that the lack of record keeping/reporting has me questioning the validity of the reported number of fires. If you tell me your record keeping is poor/vague, I'm not going to blindly trust a statement like: "don't worry these records are accurate".
    - Kon-Peki 4y ago
      In my first response, I wasn't sure of your motives and gave you the benefit of the doubt. Now I am sure of your motives. "Dozens of photographs and pages of supporting evidence lead to the conclusion that the fire started in the battery of the e-bike" Is obviously fake because it doesn't list the brand of the battery or the bike. No matter that the labels were burned off in the fire and were probably fake in the first place. You want to know where they came from? Ask the owner where he bought it, and then ask that seller, and go up the chain. The owners are much more likely to cooperate with the advocacy group rather than the fire investigator, but never mind that. Give me a break. "You say the fire was started with gasoline, but unless you can tell me which gas station it came from I don't even believe there was a fire"
    - constantcrying 4y ago
      Firefighters fight fires. How recognizable do you think a burned up e-bike is? Do you think firefighters have nothing better to do than go through photos of fires with e-bikes involved? Their report keeping is "poor" because the job of a firefighter isn't to spent hours investigating which model of e-bike might have caused the fire.
- gamblor956 4y ago
  Are the pictures of the melted e-bikes not sufficient for you? Nobody quoted in the article doubts that e-bike batteries caused the fires referred to by the article. They simply don't know which brands made the batteries that caught fire. The rest of the quote: "What would be more useful, he said, would be if the fire department committed resources to testing and sharing details about which batteries were safe to use, so that workers could make more informed decisions."
- bsder 4y ago
  > Sounds fishy. How do we even know these were e-bike fires? Fire inspectors are remarkably good at pinpointing the cause of a fire. Many moons ago, I had a NiMH-powered portable vacuum go up and set my apartment on fire. I actually went with the fire inspector afterward (dumb of me as they were suspicious about the fire--never talk to the police), and he was very happy to talk about it. Walking around was enlightening: "Okay, let's see. Fire started ... somewhere around ... here. See that V-shape on the walls from the smoke? That's like an arrow pointing at the source. Aaaand, yep, there it is. (Pulls out pliers and yanks wire out of the wall) That's the culprit. (pulls stove out) AHA! There's the other battery they couldn't find. Hmmmm, those cabinets fell. Something heavy in those? (Yeah, cast iron fry pans). That would do it. You had some books right there and there. Oh, that's odd. Dense paper doesn't really burn that well. Those books are well burnt--accelerant here. Did you have oil in those cabinets? (Sure did). Okay. Well, looking at this the temperature was about X degrees--wow, we got lucky--this was pretty close to flashing over. ..." This went on for about an hour. One thing I really learned--don't try to commit fire insurance fraud unless you're on the level of a fire inspector. They WILL know even if they can't prove it.
closeparen 4y ago
Wait till these people find out about cars.
- constantcrying 4y ago
  EVs usally burn worse than regular cars, their batteries are very hard to put out. In a combustion engine the tank is relatively small and easily sealed off from air supply, the same isn't true for the large batteries of EVs.
  - vegardx 4y ago
    If the battery packs in EVs wasn't sealed off from air it would spontaneously start to burn. So... The reality is that ICE vehicles burn at a rate almost 10 times that of BEV vehicles.
    - constantcrying 4y ago
      >If the battery packs in EVs wasn't sealed off from air it would spontaneously start to burn. So... I think you are missing the point here. >The reality is that ICE vehicles burn at a rate almost 10 times that of BEV vehicles. I am not clear what you mean by "rate" here. Incidents? Speed of burning down? From being involved with firefighting I can tell you that EVs are very difficult fires, which are significantly harder to combat than regular car fires.
- mc32 4y ago
  I wonder if insurance will (maybe it has) begin factoring in e-(transportation) for home and other insurance policies.
  - xsmasher 4y ago
    I expect that the pushback will come from insurance companies; a letter from the insurance company saying "we won't cover you if an e-bike catches fire" becomes a letter from the landlord saying "we will evict if you store an e-bike in your apartment."
kh1 4y ago
Assuming it is ebikes that cause these fires, the scary thing is that residents may use water to put out fire without knowing what could happen.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  Not just e-bikes but scooters, and I'm convinced the main driver of these fires is delivery apps. Delivery app riders tend to have bikes with massive batteries to improve range and speed, but under-engineered electronics to cut down on cost. I don't blame them for trying to make a living but it'd be great if the delivery apps themselves could take a more proactive stance and maybe subsidize some "known good" e-bike brands so they're not creating an army of Alibaba-specials with minimal QC ready to burst into flames.
ungawatkt 4y ago
Something I've been wondering: Is there something special about E-Bike/Scooter batteries to be causing fires? Or is it just the relative size and/or numbers (edit) and rougher usage? I haven't heard of a rash of lithium car starter or uninterrupted power supply batteries causing fires, for example. Or even home solar batteries (which I assume would have better protections, but that can be an answer too).
- NathanKP 4y ago
  Many of the e-bikes and scooters are sold out of small shops in NYC's various Chinatown areas. Typically the shops are run by local small business owners who have direct connections to factory owners overseas who are willing to sell to the NYC shop owner at a factory price. As a result these bikes tend to be rather dubious in origin as they were manufactured, imported, and sold without necessarily going through the same certifications that a large business would have required. On the one hand its a profitable venture for small local businesses, and the vast majority of these e-bikes function fine without big government regulation stepping in and trying to control things. But on the other hand there are a worrying number of scattered incidents of dangerous fires in our very dense city. I think this is why the article makes such a big deal about trying to track down brands and origins of the burned e-bikes. Is it random events distributed across all the e-bikes, or are there just a few bad sources that are selling particularly dangerous e-bikes? I don't think anyone knows yet.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  E-Bike and Scooters likely have more high density batteries then anything else other then the car. The cars have to go threw far, far more testing and the cost of getting it wrong is many, many billions. Most car companies make their own batteries and take it seriously. These E-Bikes and scooters come from China manufactures where the battery come from like 5 levels deep of suppliers.

21 points by elorant 4y ago

"Each fire happened, they say it’s an e-bike, but we don’t know which one it is" Sounds fishy. How do we even know these were e-bike fires?

Kon-Peki 4y ago
The person you are quoting is asking the fire department to do extra work, not questioning the correctness of the fire department's conclusions. The answers he is looking for could just as easily be collected by his group, he just wants the taxpayers to do it for him.
- josefresco 4y ago
  > The person you are quoting is asking the fire department to do extra work, not questioning the correctness of the fire department's conclusions. Correct. I'm saying that the lack of record keeping/reporting has me questioning the validity of the reported number of fires. If you tell me your record keeping is poor/vague, I'm not going to blindly trust a statement like: "don't worry these records are accurate".
  - Kon-Peki 4y ago
    In my first response, I wasn't sure of your motives and gave you the benefit of the doubt. Now I am sure of your motives. "Dozens of photographs and pages of supporting evidence lead to the conclusion that the fire started in the battery of the e-bike" Is obviously fake because it doesn't list the brand of the battery or the bike. No matter that the labels were burned off in the fire and were probably fake in the first place. You want to know where they came from? Ask the owner where he bought it, and then ask that seller, and go up the chain. The owners are much more likely to cooperate with the advocacy group rather than the fire investigator, but never mind that. Give me a break. "You say the fire was started with gasoline, but unless you can tell me which gas station it came from I don't even believe there was a fire"
  - constantcrying 4y ago
    Firefighters fight fires. How recognizable do you think a burned up e-bike is? Do you think firefighters have nothing better to do than go through photos of fires with e-bikes involved? Their report keeping is "poor" because the job of a firefighter isn't to spent hours investigating which model of e-bike might have caused the fire.
gamblor956 4y ago
Are the pictures of the melted e-bikes not sufficient for you? Nobody quoted in the article doubts that e-bike batteries caused the fires referred to by the article. They simply don't know which brands made the batteries that caught fire. The rest of the quote: "What would be more useful, he said, would be if the fire department committed resources to testing and sharing details about which batteries were safe to use, so that workers could make more informed decisions."
bsder 4y ago
> Sounds fishy. How do we even know these were e-bike fires? Fire inspectors are remarkably good at pinpointing the cause of a fire. Many moons ago, I had a NiMH-powered portable vacuum go up and set my apartment on fire. I actually went with the fire inspector afterward (dumb of me as they were suspicious about the fire--never talk to the police), and he was very happy to talk about it. Walking around was enlightening: "Okay, let's see. Fire started ... somewhere around ... here. See that V-shape on the walls from the smoke? That's like an arrow pointing at the source. Aaaand, yep, there it is. (Pulls out pliers and yanks wire out of the wall) That's the culprit. (pulls stove out) AHA! There's the other battery they couldn't find. Hmmmm, those cabinets fell. Something heavy in those? (Yeah, cast iron fry pans). That would do it. You had some books right there and there. Oh, that's odd. Dense paper doesn't really burn that well. Those books are well burnt--accelerant here. Did you have oil in those cabinets? (Sure did). Okay. Well, looking at this the temperature was about X degrees--wow, we got lucky--this was pretty close to flashing over. ..." This went on for about an hour. One thing I really learned--don't try to commit fire insurance fraud unless you're on the level of a fire inspector. They WILL know even if they can't prove it.

closeparen 4y ago

Wait till these people find out about cars.

constantcrying 4y ago
EVs usally burn worse than regular cars, their batteries are very hard to put out. In a combustion engine the tank is relatively small and easily sealed off from air supply, the same isn't true for the large batteries of EVs.
- vegardx 4y ago
  If the battery packs in EVs wasn't sealed off from air it would spontaneously start to burn. So... The reality is that ICE vehicles burn at a rate almost 10 times that of BEV vehicles.
  - constantcrying 4y ago
    >If the battery packs in EVs wasn't sealed off from air it would spontaneously start to burn. So... I think you are missing the point here. >The reality is that ICE vehicles burn at a rate almost 10 times that of BEV vehicles. I am not clear what you mean by "rate" here. Incidents? Speed of burning down? From being involved with firefighting I can tell you that EVs are very difficult fires, which are significantly harder to combat than regular car fires.
mc32 4y ago
I wonder if insurance will (maybe it has) begin factoring in e-(transportation) for home and other insurance policies.
- xsmasher 4y ago
  I expect that the pushback will come from insurance companies; a letter from the insurance company saying "we won't cover you if an e-bike catches fire" becomes a letter from the landlord saying "we will evict if you store an e-bike in your apartment."

kh1 4y ago

Assuming it is ebikes that cause these fires, the scary thing is that residents may use water to put out fire without knowing what could happen.

BoorishBears 4y ago
Not just e-bikes but scooters, and I'm convinced the main driver of these fires is delivery apps. Delivery app riders tend to have bikes with massive batteries to improve range and speed, but under-engineered electronics to cut down on cost. I don't blame them for trying to make a living but it'd be great if the delivery apps themselves could take a more proactive stance and maybe subsidize some "known good" e-bike brands so they're not creating an army of Alibaba-specials with minimal QC ready to burst into flames.

ungawatkt 4y ago

Something I've been wondering: Is there something special about E-Bike/Scooter batteries to be causing fires? Or is it just the relative size and/or numbers (edit) and rougher usage? I haven't heard of a rash of lithium car starter or uninterrupted power supply batteries causing fires, for example. Or even home solar batteries (which I assume would have better protections, but that can be an answer too).

NathanKP 4y ago
Many of the e-bikes and scooters are sold out of small shops in NYC's various Chinatown areas. Typically the shops are run by local small business owners who have direct connections to factory owners overseas who are willing to sell to the NYC shop owner at a factory price. As a result these bikes tend to be rather dubious in origin as they were manufactured, imported, and sold without necessarily going through the same certifications that a large business would have required. On the one hand its a profitable venture for small local businesses, and the vast majority of these e-bikes function fine without big government regulation stepping in and trying to control things. But on the other hand there are a worrying number of scattered incidents of dangerous fires in our very dense city. I think this is why the article makes such a big deal about trying to track down brands and origins of the burned e-bikes. Is it random events distributed across all the e-bikes, or are there just a few bad sources that are selling particularly dangerous e-bikes? I don't think anyone knows yet.
panick21_ 4y ago
E-Bike and Scooters likely have more high density batteries then anything else other then the car. The cars have to go threw far, far more testing and the cost of getting it wrong is many, many billions. Most car companies make their own batteries and take it seriously. These E-Bikes and scooters come from China manufactures where the battery come from like 5 levels deep of suppliers.