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>It seems unreasonable to me to call Ukraine fascist when it has a democratically elected government and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2014 was a consequence

>It seems unreasonable to me to call Ukraine fascist when it has a democratically elected government and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2014 was a consequence of Ukrainians getting rid of a highly corrupt, dubiously elected leader... There's another classic example. In the west, the 'Maidan Revolution' is reported as a popular uprising to overthrow a corrupt government. On the Russian side the same events are reported as a revolution fomented by the CIA to overthrow a democratically elected government, because it was pro-Moscow, and replace it with a pro-western one. Is either version the absolute truth? Is either version a total lie? I'd say, as with most such tales, the truth is found somewhere in the middle. You've even done it yourself. You said Ukraine has a "democratically elected government" which replaced a "highly corrupt, dubiously elected leader". But the previous government was democratically elected too. And was overthrown by a revolution [popular or otherwise]. >All societies engage in censorship in one form or other. Of course. But only the west seems to maintain this pretense that "we" don't and "they" do. EDIT: Oddly enough, I just closed this edit window to see a submission from the Guardian: "China circles El Salvador’s economy as country edges toward crypto plunge" [0] with 'circling' giving a nice predatory image of a shark waiting to move in for the kill on a hapless victim. I wonder how that headline would have been worded if the US or EU was in talks to buy up El Salvador's debt instead of China? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/nov/15/china-el-salvador-economy-cryptocurrency-fall https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/nov/15/china-el-...

syzarian 4y ago
Of course there was American support for Maidan but that in no way undermines the legitimacy of the current government. Clearly, as we see from the peoples’ reaction to Russian occupation of territory after the February invasion that Russia’s actions are not popular amongst Ukrainians. Since Ukrainians are the ones being occupied their wishes on this matter take moral precedence. The fact is that Russia has not been stably non expansionist for centuries. Russia’s actions in Belarus, Georgia, Ukraine, etc. show that whenever a government gains power that they don’t or where people rise up against a government they do like they react with military intervention. And in Ukraine in particular their actions are not supported by the people being affected. They are the morally reprehensible party. In the same way American overthrow of popularly elected governments in the past have been morally reprehensible.
- Normille 4y ago
  >but that in no way undermines the legitimacy of the current government... I never said it did. But you [deliberately?] failed to mention that the previous pro-Russian government was also democratically elected. Pointing out instead that it was 'corrupt'. Well, a government can be corrupt and still democratically elected. And [cf. several previous UK elections] a government can also be 'democratically elected' with a majority of the people voting against it. >Clearly, as we see from the peoples’ reaction to Russian occupation... Yes. It's amazing how, in the western press everyone in Ukraine is opposed to the invasion. Yet on sites like Russia today, we're given the impression that in those territories in the east annexed by Russia, huge numbers of the population are rejoicing at being 'liberated'. You're 'clearly' seeing only one side of the story. I'm not saying that what's being reported on the Russian side isn't full of lies, half-truths and propaganda. But I'm cynical [or realist] enough not to take what we're being fed by our side at face value either. As the man said "The first casualty of war is truth"
  - syzarian 4y ago
    You are being disingenuous with your quotes of what I wrote. I specifically referenced lack of support for Russian occupation in the territories conquered after February. I did not reference territories conquered in 2014. Morally speaking there is only one view. Ukraine posed no threat to Russia and it was invaded. There is no other way to look at it. Russian forces have killed, raped, and tortured hundreds times more civilians than Ukrainian soldiers. There is no moral equivalence between the sides of this conflict. Russia has invaded or militarily intervened numerous times against its neighbors since for the 400 years. It is Europe’s last overtly colonial empire and it deserves nothing less than condemnation and ire. There were no meaningful demonstrations in support of Russian occupation on territories conquered post February 2022. I mentioned the current government of Ukraine being democratically elected to point out the absurdity of the Russian claim of it being fascist. Ukraine hasn’t been a fascist ever, as far as I know. So bringing up that Ukraine had a democratically elected government prior to 2014 isn’t relevant to this point.

syzarian 4y ago

Of course there was American support for Maidan but that in no way undermines the legitimacy of the current government. Clearly, as we see from the peoples’ reaction to Russian occupation of territory after the February invasion that Russia’s actions are not popular amongst Ukrainians. Since Ukrainians are the ones being occupied their wishes on this matter take moral precedence. The fact is that Russia has not been stably non expansionist for centuries. Russia’s actions in Belarus, Georgia, Ukraine, etc. show that whenever a government gains power that they don’t or where people rise up against a government they do like they react with military intervention. And in Ukraine in particular their actions are not supported by the people being affected. They are the morally reprehensible party. In the same way American overthrow of popularly elected governments in the past have been morally reprehensible.

Normille 4y ago
>but that in no way undermines the legitimacy of the current government... I never said it did. But you [deliberately?] failed to mention that the previous pro-Russian government was also democratically elected. Pointing out instead that it was 'corrupt'. Well, a government can be corrupt and still democratically elected. And [cf. several previous UK elections] a government can also be 'democratically elected' with a majority of the people voting against it. >Clearly, as we see from the peoples’ reaction to Russian occupation... Yes. It's amazing how, in the western press everyone in Ukraine is opposed to the invasion. Yet on sites like Russia today, we're given the impression that in those territories in the east annexed by Russia, huge numbers of the population are rejoicing at being 'liberated'. You're 'clearly' seeing only one side of the story. I'm not saying that what's being reported on the Russian side isn't full of lies, half-truths and propaganda. But I'm cynical [or realist] enough not to take what we're being fed by our side at face value either. As the man said "The first casualty of war is truth"
- syzarian 4y ago
  You are being disingenuous with your quotes of what I wrote. I specifically referenced lack of support for Russian occupation in the territories conquered after February. I did not reference territories conquered in 2014. Morally speaking there is only one view. Ukraine posed no threat to Russia and it was invaded. There is no other way to look at it. Russian forces have killed, raped, and tortured hundreds times more civilians than Ukrainian soldiers. There is no moral equivalence between the sides of this conflict. Russia has invaded or militarily intervened numerous times against its neighbors since for the 400 years. It is Europe’s last overtly colonial empire and it deserves nothing less than condemnation and ire. There were no meaningful demonstrations in support of Russian occupation on territories conquered post February 2022. I mentioned the current government of Ukraine being democratically elected to point out the absurdity of the Russian claim of it being fascist. Ukraine hasn’t been a fascist ever, as far as I know. So bringing up that Ukraine had a democratically elected government prior to 2014 isn’t relevant to this point.