4 ms·

Batteries don't have acceptable energy density for use in aircraft and transoceanic shipping. It's not that hydrogen is better than batteries for a sedan. It's

Batteries don't have acceptable energy density for use in aircraft and transoceanic shipping. It's not that hydrogen is better than batteries for a sedan. It's that you'll never, ever fly across the Pacific in a battery powered airliner.

freeone3000 4y ago
As if we'll ever have a transatlantic voyage in a craft held aloft by hydrogen
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  It's been built before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155 Ships have even less of an issue with storing hydrogen since mass is less of an issue (building lightweight enclosures for liquid hydrogen is a challenge).
- nanomonkey 4y ago
  I assume this is a joke as the LZ127 and Hindenburg made hundreds of trans Atlantic trips.
Night_Thastus 4y ago
*With current battery technology We have no idea what batteries may be possible in the future. It may be a decade or a hundred years, but one day that may very well be possible.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  A battery powered plane is possible in the same vein that a fusion powered plane is possible - it's not at all possible with current technology and anything in the foreseeable future.
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    There are battery electric "regional commuter" two-seater planes on sale today. There's a 9-seater prototype that has completed short hop test flights [1]. Right now almost all of that is short-hop, but the excitement in that growing industry is that may disrupt the economics of even long range jet flights before long. (Not just "foreseeable future" but "sooner than you think".) (The efficiencies of battery electric for planes is apparently really interesting: that battery motor full torque access apparently a game changer for some types of flight dynamics. Or so I've heard.) [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/largest-electric-plane-yet-completed-its-first-flight-it-s-n1221401 https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/largest-electri...
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      > The aircraft flew at more than 100 mph to an altitude of around 2,500 feet, made a few turns and then landed after 28 minutes This isn't going to disrupt any kind of airline traffic. Battery energy density needs to improve by at least an order of magnitude - probably two - before it has any significant aerospace application outside of drones.
      - WorldMaker 4y ago
        Already practical for some applications but needing work to more, even possibly a lot of work, is still a vast difference from "never in the foreseeable future". Regional planes that only travel 30 minutes to an hour and do so cheaper and more efficiently than gas/diesel equivalent planes can still massively disrupt the big passenger airlines. It used to be that the airlines had a wider mixture of 30 minute/1 hour flights on smaller commuter planes to smaller "regional" airports before the economies of scale of jet engines pushed everything bigger (fewer flights below 1 hour in distance; more "hub-and-spokes" centralization; etc). A return of cheap, efficient short 9 or so passenger commuter flights could massively disrupt today's passenger airlines and their logistics, not just tomorrow's. If electric efficiencies also manage to scale to the bigger flights, who knows what will happen, but it is something to watch that there's already practical disruption implications even before scaling it up that big.
janef0421 4y ago
For transoceanic shipping, direct use of nuclear power is more efficient. It also enables higher speeds more consistently and increases operational flexibility. The main cost is increased capital expenses, which should pay for themselves due to reduced cost of operations, and increased crew costs, which should reduce as nuclear operations become a standard part of the training of mariners. There are also some issues around governance, but those are fairly malleable.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
palata 4y ago
Modern aviation was born with fossil fuels, and it will die with fossil fuels. We should probably just start accepting it...

freeone3000 4y ago

As if we'll ever have a transatlantic voyage in a craft held aloft by hydrogen

Manuel_D 4y ago
It's been built before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155 Ships have even less of an issue with storing hydrogen since mass is less of an issue (building lightweight enclosures for liquid hydrogen is a challenge).
nanomonkey 4y ago
I assume this is a joke as the LZ127 and Hindenburg made hundreds of trans Atlantic trips.

Night_Thastus 4y ago

*With current battery technology We have no idea what batteries may be possible in the future. It may be a decade or a hundred years, but one day that may very well be possible.

Manuel_D 4y ago
A battery powered plane is possible in the same vein that a fusion powered plane is possible - it's not at all possible with current technology and anything in the foreseeable future.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  There are battery electric "regional commuter" two-seater planes on sale today. There's a 9-seater prototype that has completed short hop test flights [1]. Right now almost all of that is short-hop, but the excitement in that growing industry is that may disrupt the economics of even long range jet flights before long. (Not just "foreseeable future" but "sooner than you think".) (The efficiencies of battery electric for planes is apparently really interesting: that battery motor full torque access apparently a game changer for some types of flight dynamics. Or so I've heard.) [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/largest-electric-plane-yet-completed-its-first-flight-it-s-n1221401 https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/largest-electri...
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    > The aircraft flew at more than 100 mph to an altitude of around 2,500 feet, made a few turns and then landed after 28 minutes This isn't going to disrupt any kind of airline traffic. Battery energy density needs to improve by at least an order of magnitude - probably two - before it has any significant aerospace application outside of drones.
    - WorldMaker 4y ago
      Already practical for some applications but needing work to more, even possibly a lot of work, is still a vast difference from "never in the foreseeable future". Regional planes that only travel 30 minutes to an hour and do so cheaper and more efficiently than gas/diesel equivalent planes can still massively disrupt the big passenger airlines. It used to be that the airlines had a wider mixture of 30 minute/1 hour flights on smaller commuter planes to smaller "regional" airports before the economies of scale of jet engines pushed everything bigger (fewer flights below 1 hour in distance; more "hub-and-spokes" centralization; etc). A return of cheap, efficient short 9 or so passenger commuter flights could massively disrupt today's passenger airlines and their logistics, not just tomorrow's. If electric efficiencies also manage to scale to the bigger flights, who knows what will happen, but it is something to watch that there's already practical disruption implications even before scaling it up that big.

janef0421 4y ago

For transoceanic shipping, direct use of nuclear power is more efficient. It also enables higher speeds more consistently and increases operational flexibility. The main cost is increased capital expenses, which should pay for themselves due to reduced cost of operations, and increased crew costs, which should reduce as nuclear operations become a standard part of the training of mariners. There are also some issues around governance, but those are fairly malleable.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

palata 4y ago

Modern aviation was born with fossil fuels, and it will die with fossil fuels. We should probably just start accepting it...