5 ms·

> Furthermore, there are ample reasons to doubt whether “brainwashing” permanently alters beliefs This person needs to look at interviews of mk-ultra experimen

by _8j50 4y ago

> Furthermore, there are ample reasons to doubt whether “brainwashing” permanently alters beliefs This person needs to look at interviews of mk-ultra experiment survivors. Brainwashing is very real and permanent.

blacksmith_tb 4y ago
It also doesn't quite make sense, even if these techniques aren't any more serious than other kinds of indoctrination, we have abundant examples of indoctrination permanently altering beliefs - religious conversions, ideological movements, etc.
- Kranar 4y ago
  Indoctrination is not the same as brainwashing though. If what you mean is indoctrination then use that term. Brainwashing is the idea that it's possible for a specific agent to forcefully gain significant control over someone's mind. Indoctrination is not forced on a person by a specific agent but rather is the result of passive exposure over long periods of time. As a social species we are all indoctrinated to some degree by our culture, our parents, friends, profession etc... but that is not the same as a specific person having significant control over our beliefs or actions.
  - MikePlacid 4y ago
    > Indoctrination is not forced on a person by a specific agent but rather is the result of passive exposure over long periods of time. I do not think that indoctrination is being done by passive exposure only. This 1970 book: https://www.amazon.com/Canvassing-Peace-manual-volunteers-pages/dp/B0015OCYOU https://www.amazon.com/Canvassing-Peace-manual-volunteers-pa... (and yes, this is the Zimbardo of Stanford experiment) describes the tactic that was successful in starting the piece movement. The first step Zimbardo recommends when going from home to home - is to ask to sign some document that almost nobody will refuse to sign. Not “Stop the war now”, but more like “Investigate reports of war crimes”. Who will refuse to sign under such a noble request? What? Do you support war crimes?? A lot of signatures was collected. But there was no need to send these collective signatures anywhere. Zimbardo states (as a scientific fact, lol) that after a person signed something in support of some (anti-war in this case) position - the person’s perception changes. He will become a little bit more receptive to anti-war arguments than to pro-war ones. (Other purpose of this first canvassing was to find people who already are passionate about your cause and sign them on as volunteers). As I can see this tactic - not passive indoctrination, but active involvement via small first steps - is used rather widely on our planet these days. The most cynical variant is “give some little money to our noble cause!” - those being indoctrinated are financing the indoctrination campaign themselves. That is, if Zimbardo is right.
Kranar 4y ago
MKUltra would be an example in support of the claim that brainwashing is not real. No one is disputing that subjecting someone to drugs will permanently alter their beliefs, anyone who has come in contact with an alcoholic or a heavy drug addict knows this but that's not what brainwashing is. Brainwashing is ability to control someone's thoughts often with the goal of inducing specific beliefs and ideas. While there is plenty of evidence that MKUltra damaged people psychologically and forever changed their personality, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it managed to change their personality in a controlled manner.
- mistermann 4y ago
  > there is absolutely no evidence I often wonder whether the neurological algorithm that underlies this got into so many minds purely organically or if it was put there somehow.
- snapcaster 4y ago
  How can you say "there is no evidence" using your own definition people I've met many times throughout life meet that criteria belonging to the military, religions of all stripes, CMU students
  - Kranar 4y ago
    Because I said there is no evidence that MKUltra brainwashed people. You've met people in the military, CMU students and religions of all stripes who were subject to MKUltra and had their minds controlled?
    - snapcaster 4y ago
      Fair enough, didn't read closely enough
- _8j50 4y ago
  Mkultra was not just drugs. Look into it more. You know another term for brainwashing? Hypnosis! Which is something psychiatrists also do. Not only did mkultra brainwash people but some survivors forgot everything about their life before the experiment.

by _8j50 4y ago

blacksmith_tb 4y ago

It also doesn't quite make sense, even if these techniques aren't any more serious than other kinds of indoctrination, we have abundant examples of indoctrination permanently altering beliefs - religious conversions, ideological movements, etc.

Kranar 4y ago
Indoctrination is not the same as brainwashing though. If what you mean is indoctrination then use that term. Brainwashing is the idea that it's possible for a specific agent to forcefully gain significant control over someone's mind. Indoctrination is not forced on a person by a specific agent but rather is the result of passive exposure over long periods of time. As a social species we are all indoctrinated to some degree by our culture, our parents, friends, profession etc... but that is not the same as a specific person having significant control over our beliefs or actions.
- MikePlacid 4y ago
  > Indoctrination is not forced on a person by a specific agent but rather is the result of passive exposure over long periods of time. I do not think that indoctrination is being done by passive exposure only. This 1970 book: https://www.amazon.com/Canvassing-Peace-manual-volunteers-pages/dp/B0015OCYOU https://www.amazon.com/Canvassing-Peace-manual-volunteers-pa... (and yes, this is the Zimbardo of Stanford experiment) describes the tactic that was successful in starting the piece movement. The first step Zimbardo recommends when going from home to home - is to ask to sign some document that almost nobody will refuse to sign. Not “Stop the war now”, but more like “Investigate reports of war crimes”. Who will refuse to sign under such a noble request? What? Do you support war crimes?? A lot of signatures was collected. But there was no need to send these collective signatures anywhere. Zimbardo states (as a scientific fact, lol) that after a person signed something in support of some (anti-war in this case) position - the person’s perception changes. He will become a little bit more receptive to anti-war arguments than to pro-war ones. (Other purpose of this first canvassing was to find people who already are passionate about your cause and sign them on as volunteers). As I can see this tactic - not passive indoctrination, but active involvement via small first steps - is used rather widely on our planet these days. The most cynical variant is “give some little money to our noble cause!” - those being indoctrinated are financing the indoctrination campaign themselves. That is, if Zimbardo is right.

Kranar 4y ago

MKUltra would be an example in support of the claim that brainwashing is not real. No one is disputing that subjecting someone to drugs will permanently alter their beliefs, anyone who has come in contact with an alcoholic or a heavy drug addict knows this but that's not what brainwashing is. Brainwashing is ability to control someone's thoughts often with the goal of inducing specific beliefs and ideas. While there is plenty of evidence that MKUltra damaged people psychologically and forever changed their personality, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it managed to change their personality in a controlled manner.

mistermann 4y ago
> there is absolutely no evidence I often wonder whether the neurological algorithm that underlies this got into so many minds purely organically or if it was put there somehow.
snapcaster 4y ago
How can you say "there is no evidence" using your own definition people I've met many times throughout life meet that criteria belonging to the military, religions of all stripes, CMU students
- Kranar 4y ago
  Because I said there is no evidence that MKUltra brainwashed people. You've met people in the military, CMU students and religions of all stripes who were subject to MKUltra and had their minds controlled?
  - snapcaster 4y ago
    Fair enough, didn't read closely enough
_8j50 4y ago
Mkultra was not just drugs. Look into it more. You know another term for brainwashing? Hypnosis! Which is something psychiatrists also do. Not only did mkultra brainwash people but some survivors forgot everything about their life before the experiment.