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In other news: the several international banks are moving forward with their "Digital Dollar" experiment. It's news like this that keeps me holding on to my Bi

In other news: the several international banks are moving forward with their "Digital Dollar" experiment. It's news like this that keeps me holding on to my Bitcoin. Once digital cryptocurrencies become in vogue again BTC will once again become valuable.

coffeebeqn 4y ago
I don’t really get the point. My dollars are already digital. It’s not like my employer sends a stack of 100s to my banks vault every two weeks
- alexb_ 4y ago
  But you can still withdraw that for stacks of 100s if you so please. And these dollars cannot be tracked by large corporations hungry for any bit of data about you.
  - nayuki 4y ago
    Banknotes have serial numbers printed on them. It's not inconceivable for ATMs to record serial numbers when withdrawing and banks to record serial numbers when depositing cash.
    - ronsor 4y ago
      You always can exchange banknotes for other banknotes of equivalent value, with anyone.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        That's exactly what tornadocash was doing, and the government claimed it was money laundering and blacklisted the exchange.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Having digital dollars is completely unrelated to banning hard currency. I know this because the vast majority of current dollar business is completely digital, and hard currency exists. I mean, people withdraw bitcoin for stacks of $100s.
- EMM_386 4y ago
  But you won't have the option of cash, the Fed getting into digital currency implies an all-digital future. No cash, and everything is traced. Nobody gets to be "paid under the table", no exchanging cash with your dealer for drugs, no buying things you may be ashmed to buy with cash.
  - humanistbot 4y ago
    > But you won't have the option of cash, the Fed getting into digital currency implies an all-digital future. That is quite a leap in logic, or "implies" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
    - gerad 4y ago
      Historical precedent, and the fact that most of world trade is now dollarized, means that it’s incredibly unlikely that the US will ever deprecate cash. Unlike other currencies, all US currency ever issued remains legal tender [1]. Honestly, if you want untraceable transactions - using US cash is going to be way better than any digital currency. 1: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12768.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12768.htm
  - giaour 4y ago
    I don’t know how you made the leap from “digital currencies will exist” to “non-digital currencies will cease to exist.” Even if that were to happen, you could still get paid under the table will gold, gemstones, bushels of corn, pallets of durable goods, etc. meatspace won’t simply end when a central bank issues a digital currency.
- lxgr 4y ago
  You don't have digital dollars, you have demand deposits denominated in dollars. Ideally, in a world where everybody has access to a checking account covered by adequate deposit insurance and interbank transfers are instantaneous, the difference is purely academic – but depending on where you live, reality falls short of that ideal. There are two possible solutions: Regulate the desired status quo into being (or trust the market do do it, or any combination thereof), or create a public alternative. These aren't in any way mutually exclusive.
jimcavel888 4y ago
shkkmo 4y ago
Wouldn't functional digital currencies simply remove any remaning non-speculative use for Bitcoin and further tank it? I fail to see how it provides any confidence that bitcoin will regain value.
- UltraViolence 4y ago
  Because there's no added value in having a digital dollar variant which is ultimately controlled by the government and Big Money. But its existence will give independent digital cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin more legitimacy, which translates into higher demand, which translates into a higher price. I foresee countries like Russia, China and other rogue nations betting big on digital cryptocurrencies to evade sanctions. From what I gather they're already doing this now, but in the future more non-aligned countries in Africa, Asia and South America may join them. The best way for them to do so would be to use Bitcoin since most financial networks (SWIFT) are controlled by Western nations. These countries are fed up with the West's incessant financial terrorism and misuse of financial institutions to strangle them or to put them on a leash.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    > Because there's no added value in having a digital dollar variant which is ultimately controlled by the government and Big Money. You mean beside paying taxes or going to jail, right?
    - UltraViolence 4y ago
      I recently read a frightening article which postulates that a move towards digital currency will make NEGATIVE interest rates feasible for Central Banks.
  - shkkmo 4y ago
    > But its existence will give independent digital cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin more legitimacy How exactly? The legitimate uses will move to the legitimate digital currencies which will leave only illicit and speculative users, further tanking Bitcoin's reputation.
shp0ngle 4y ago
I don’t get what are these “digital dollars” supposed to do. There already is a digital dollar. It’s called “dollar”.
- UltraViolence 4y ago
  They're an alternative to Bitcoin, whilst at the same time guaranteeing government oversight and control of the money supply. Money == power. Alternative currency not created and vetted by the government will mean a loss of power for the politicians.
- ronsor 4y ago
  It's a scheme to give the government more control over your money than they already have.
  - asah 4y ago
    ...which IMHO isn't necessarily a bad thing. Here me out: - you're already at the mercy of the "guys with guys" and the judges who direct them. - central banks struggle to get timely complete information to make decisions. CBDCs offer a path to finally fixing this. - central banks are very limited in what they can do today and in particular can't pop individual asset bubbles without cratering the economy. CBDCs offer a path to finally fixing this. I know the crypto libertarians simply hate the govt, but frankly I love the (US) government: - military that's reasonably competent (vs random warlords trashing everything) - airports, roads, subways and infrastructure (vs every man for himself?!) - air, water, food, etc that's reasonably clean (vs actually being poisoned or living in bubble?!) The list goes on, but you get the idea.
  - lxgr 4y ago
    Arguably it would only make the implicit control governments already have more explicit and transparent. Personally, rather than having obscure scores and lists in the background preventing people from getting banked with next to no recourse in case of mixups, I'd appreciate a public alternative, if only as an experiment and to encourage the banking industry to innovate a bit. There are very interesting technologies being developed in this space as well, e.g. Taler offering one-sided anonymity for payments.

coffeebeqn 4y ago

I don’t really get the point. My dollars are already digital. It’s not like my employer sends a stack of 100s to my banks vault every two weeks

alexb_ 4y ago
But you can still withdraw that for stacks of 100s if you so please. And these dollars cannot be tracked by large corporations hungry for any bit of data about you.
- nayuki 4y ago
  Banknotes have serial numbers printed on them. It's not inconceivable for ATMs to record serial numbers when withdrawing and banks to record serial numbers when depositing cash.
  - ronsor 4y ago
    You always can exchange banknotes for other banknotes of equivalent value, with anyone.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      That's exactly what tornadocash was doing, and the government claimed it was money laundering and blacklisted the exchange.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Having digital dollars is completely unrelated to banning hard currency. I know this because the vast majority of current dollar business is completely digital, and hard currency exists. I mean, people withdraw bitcoin for stacks of $100s.
EMM_386 4y ago
But you won't have the option of cash, the Fed getting into digital currency implies an all-digital future. No cash, and everything is traced. Nobody gets to be "paid under the table", no exchanging cash with your dealer for drugs, no buying things you may be ashmed to buy with cash.
- humanistbot 4y ago
  > But you won't have the option of cash, the Fed getting into digital currency implies an all-digital future. That is quite a leap in logic, or "implies" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
  - gerad 4y ago
    Historical precedent, and the fact that most of world trade is now dollarized, means that it’s incredibly unlikely that the US will ever deprecate cash. Unlike other currencies, all US currency ever issued remains legal tender [1]. Honestly, if you want untraceable transactions - using US cash is going to be way better than any digital currency. 1: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12768.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12768.htm
- giaour 4y ago
  I don’t know how you made the leap from “digital currencies will exist” to “non-digital currencies will cease to exist.” Even if that were to happen, you could still get paid under the table will gold, gemstones, bushels of corn, pallets of durable goods, etc. meatspace won’t simply end when a central bank issues a digital currency.
lxgr 4y ago
You don't have digital dollars, you have demand deposits denominated in dollars. Ideally, in a world where everybody has access to a checking account covered by adequate deposit insurance and interbank transfers are instantaneous, the difference is purely academic – but depending on where you live, reality falls short of that ideal. There are two possible solutions: Regulate the desired status quo into being (or trust the market do do it, or any combination thereof), or create a public alternative. These aren't in any way mutually exclusive.

jimcavel888 4y ago

shkkmo 4y ago

Wouldn't functional digital currencies simply remove any remaning non-speculative use for Bitcoin and further tank it? I fail to see how it provides any confidence that bitcoin will regain value.

UltraViolence 4y ago
Because there's no added value in having a digital dollar variant which is ultimately controlled by the government and Big Money. But its existence will give independent digital cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin more legitimacy, which translates into higher demand, which translates into a higher price. I foresee countries like Russia, China and other rogue nations betting big on digital cryptocurrencies to evade sanctions. From what I gather they're already doing this now, but in the future more non-aligned countries in Africa, Asia and South America may join them. The best way for them to do so would be to use Bitcoin since most financial networks (SWIFT) are controlled by Western nations. These countries are fed up with the West's incessant financial terrorism and misuse of financial institutions to strangle them or to put them on a leash.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  > Because there's no added value in having a digital dollar variant which is ultimately controlled by the government and Big Money. You mean beside paying taxes or going to jail, right?
  - UltraViolence 4y ago
    I recently read a frightening article which postulates that a move towards digital currency will make NEGATIVE interest rates feasible for Central Banks.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  > But its existence will give independent digital cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin more legitimacy How exactly? The legitimate uses will move to the legitimate digital currencies which will leave only illicit and speculative users, further tanking Bitcoin's reputation.

shp0ngle 4y ago

I don’t get what are these “digital dollars” supposed to do. There already is a digital dollar. It’s called “dollar”.

UltraViolence 4y ago
They're an alternative to Bitcoin, whilst at the same time guaranteeing government oversight and control of the money supply. Money == power. Alternative currency not created and vetted by the government will mean a loss of power for the politicians.
ronsor 4y ago
It's a scheme to give the government more control over your money than they already have.
- asah 4y ago
  ...which IMHO isn't necessarily a bad thing. Here me out: - you're already at the mercy of the "guys with guys" and the judges who direct them. - central banks struggle to get timely complete information to make decisions. CBDCs offer a path to finally fixing this. - central banks are very limited in what they can do today and in particular can't pop individual asset bubbles without cratering the economy. CBDCs offer a path to finally fixing this. I know the crypto libertarians simply hate the govt, but frankly I love the (US) government: - military that's reasonably competent (vs random warlords trashing everything) - airports, roads, subways and infrastructure (vs every man for himself?!) - air, water, food, etc that's reasonably clean (vs actually being poisoned or living in bubble?!) The list goes on, but you get the idea.
- lxgr 4y ago
  Arguably it would only make the implicit control governments already have more explicit and transparent. Personally, rather than having obscure scores and lists in the background preventing people from getting banked with next to no recourse in case of mixups, I'd appreciate a public alternative, if only as an experiment and to encourage the banking industry to innovate a bit. There are very interesting technologies being developed in this space as well, e.g. Taler offering one-sided anonymity for payments.