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The EV drive trains are simpler, but they've come along with some silly bits like having to electronically open the glove box from the infotainment screen. Is t

The EV drive trains are simpler, but they've come along with some silly bits like having to electronically open the glove box from the infotainment screen. Is that mechanism going to last 20 years? How about the pop-out door handles? I'm not optimistic. I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise."

robin_reala 4y ago
These are Tesla things though. My VW EV has normal door handles, glove box handle, air vent positioning, manual seats, etc etc.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  They may be "Tesla things", but they're in no way related to Tesla's being an EV. The same gadgetry could very well be attached to an ICE vehicle.
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    The Rivian suv is even worse like this. I was waiting for the suv to come out and now that it finally did I guess I'll just get a 4runner. It doesn't boggle my mind that there are people with no sense that think a car with just a big touch screen and nothing else is a fresh new and therefor better idea, but it does boggle my mind that there are so many of them that a whole car actually gets all the way to mass production like that, all the engineers and ergonomics people and managers and execs that all had to sign off on all of that... that does just plain flabbergast me. You need to navigate screen menus to AIM THE AIR VENTS in the Rivian suv.
- wlesieutre 4y ago
  The Lyriq also has an electronic glove box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sirCpkqvpE0&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sirCpkqvpE0&t=59s Very possible we'll see the same in the Blazer, and maybe the Equinox too. Which puts you in the stupid situation where if your 12v battery is dead, you can't even use the car's paper manual to look at the jumping instructions. The process has of course been made more complicated by the addition of a scavenger hunt for the positive and negative terminals hidden under separate plastic covers under the hood. The 12v battery in an EV shouldn't die, but failures in the system to automatically keep it topped up are not unheard of, and batteries do go bad eventually.
ghaff 4y ago
To be fair, even many of the latest ICE vehicles have a lot of electronic/motor-driven frippery. I bought a new vehicle over the summer and, in spite of having a fairly generous collection of pushbutton controls, still has a ton of automatic controls--e.g. shifting the drivers side rearview mirror to reverse--that aren't really necessarily and are presumably expensive to fix when they break.
bmj 4y ago
This isn't limited to EVs, though, right? My 2012 VW TDI won't open without a key fob (even though the ignition is still key-driven). How is that a "feature?" Just let me unlock the door with my key. I am very much against "infotainment" systems, and I wonder if some makers will begin/continue to offer models that do not have a tablet in the middle of the dash.
- bandyaboot 4y ago
  If it's like most VW's that I've seen with no apparent way to unlock with a key, the physical key mechanism is hidden under the door handle trim piece. But maybe you're just saying that opening with the key is not provided as a primary option? For better or for worse, the "feature" is aesthetics.
  - bmj 4y ago
    Huh, so there's some magic panel or something? I'll have to poke around.
    - willcipriano 4y ago
      Look for a little rubber flap under the drivers side door handle.
    - bandyaboot 4y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OECOoNYZXmk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OECOoNYZXmk
bryanlarsen 4y ago
I have no idea about electronic glove boxes, but electronic window openers are cheaper and more reliable than manual window openers. Sure sometimes an electronic window opener won't open the window when it's frozen shut but that's a good part of the reason why it's more reliable -- many a manual opener has been broken putting too much torque on a window that's frozen shut.
- setr 4y ago
  In terms of whether it’s poor/reliable design, I think the failure mode and dependency chain is much more important than capabilities. The glovebox example has two key features your windows example does not: 1. If the glovebox fails for any reason, there’s no workaround and it goes to closed. (I don’t know whether it’s true there’s no workaround, but that’s what we’ve got suggested here). This would be akin to the window failing, and reverting to full-open position with no way to physically pull it, or convince it to stay in current position. 2. If the infotainment system fails, the glovebox is taken out with it. Because of 1, the glovebox is taken out 100% — not just the convenient infotainment style of usage. This would be akin to, well, the same. The death of the infotainment system is the death of your windows. 3. There could also be the reverse dependency, not in play here (afaik) — the death of the glovebox mechanic may equate to the death of your infotainment system. That is, the question isn’t whether the individual component is reliable in and of itself (which is less a statement about Tesla and more of their suppliers), but whether they’ve tied things together such that one failure creates a cascading effect — and done so unnecessarily. And in such scenarios, whether backup strategies exist.. (your tire shouldn’t blow, but if it does… there’s an extra tire in your trunk and shitty-but-enough tools to get by). And as I understand it, Tesla has produced a masterpiece of unnecessarily coupled components, particularly around the UX. So it’s not surprise to me that they see higher UX failure rates — they seem to design the car intentionally to have no degraded experience allowed; either everything works, or nothing does
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  The Model S has frameless windows. If the window opener fails you can't close or open the door. They use the fact that they are electronic to add gimmicks.
duncans 4y ago
Regarding the pop-out door handles - this is a fascinating video on how the Tesla Model S door handles design has been refined and made more reliable by someone who used to work at Tesla (SuperfastMatt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea4FS-zDzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea4FS-zDzc
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise." The only reason they ask for your papers is because it's an easy ticket to write or pretext for fishing if you don't have them. They look up your info based on the plate regardless.

robin_reala 4y ago

These are Tesla things though. My VW EV has normal door handles, glove box handle, air vent positioning, manual seats, etc etc.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
They may be "Tesla things", but they're in no way related to Tesla's being an EV. The same gadgetry could very well be attached to an ICE vehicle.
- Brian_K_White 4y ago
  The Rivian suv is even worse like this. I was waiting for the suv to come out and now that it finally did I guess I'll just get a 4runner. It doesn't boggle my mind that there are people with no sense that think a car with just a big touch screen and nothing else is a fresh new and therefor better idea, but it does boggle my mind that there are so many of them that a whole car actually gets all the way to mass production like that, all the engineers and ergonomics people and managers and execs that all had to sign off on all of that... that does just plain flabbergast me. You need to navigate screen menus to AIM THE AIR VENTS in the Rivian suv.
wlesieutre 4y ago
The Lyriq also has an electronic glove box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sirCpkqvpE0&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sirCpkqvpE0&t=59s Very possible we'll see the same in the Blazer, and maybe the Equinox too. Which puts you in the stupid situation where if your 12v battery is dead, you can't even use the car's paper manual to look at the jumping instructions. The process has of course been made more complicated by the addition of a scavenger hunt for the positive and negative terminals hidden under separate plastic covers under the hood. The 12v battery in an EV shouldn't die, but failures in the system to automatically keep it topped up are not unheard of, and batteries do go bad eventually.

ghaff 4y ago

To be fair, even many of the latest ICE vehicles have a lot of electronic/motor-driven frippery. I bought a new vehicle over the summer and, in spite of having a fairly generous collection of pushbutton controls, still has a ton of automatic controls--e.g. shifting the drivers side rearview mirror to reverse--that aren't really necessarily and are presumably expensive to fix when they break.

bmj 4y ago

This isn't limited to EVs, though, right? My 2012 VW TDI won't open without a key fob (even though the ignition is still key-driven). How is that a "feature?" Just let me unlock the door with my key. I am very much against "infotainment" systems, and I wonder if some makers will begin/continue to offer models that do not have a tablet in the middle of the dash.

bandyaboot 4y ago
If it's like most VW's that I've seen with no apparent way to unlock with a key, the physical key mechanism is hidden under the door handle trim piece. But maybe you're just saying that opening with the key is not provided as a primary option? For better or for worse, the "feature" is aesthetics.
- bmj 4y ago
  Huh, so there's some magic panel or something? I'll have to poke around.
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    Look for a little rubber flap under the drivers side door handle.
  - bandyaboot 4y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OECOoNYZXmk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OECOoNYZXmk

bryanlarsen 4y ago

I have no idea about electronic glove boxes, but electronic window openers are cheaper and more reliable than manual window openers. Sure sometimes an electronic window opener won't open the window when it's frozen shut but that's a good part of the reason why it's more reliable -- many a manual opener has been broken putting too much torque on a window that's frozen shut.

setr 4y ago
In terms of whether it’s poor/reliable design, I think the failure mode and dependency chain is much more important than capabilities. The glovebox example has two key features your windows example does not: 1. If the glovebox fails for any reason, there’s no workaround and it goes to closed. (I don’t know whether it’s true there’s no workaround, but that’s what we’ve got suggested here). This would be akin to the window failing, and reverting to full-open position with no way to physically pull it, or convince it to stay in current position. 2. If the infotainment system fails, the glovebox is taken out with it. Because of 1, the glovebox is taken out 100% — not just the convenient infotainment style of usage. This would be akin to, well, the same. The death of the infotainment system is the death of your windows. 3. There could also be the reverse dependency, not in play here (afaik) — the death of the glovebox mechanic may equate to the death of your infotainment system. That is, the question isn’t whether the individual component is reliable in and of itself (which is less a statement about Tesla and more of their suppliers), but whether they’ve tied things together such that one failure creates a cascading effect — and done so unnecessarily. And in such scenarios, whether backup strategies exist.. (your tire shouldn’t blow, but if it does… there’s an extra tire in your trunk and shitty-but-enough tools to get by). And as I understand it, Tesla has produced a masterpiece of unnecessarily coupled components, particularly around the UX. So it’s not surprise to me that they see higher UX failure rates — they seem to design the car intentionally to have no degraded experience allowed; either everything works, or nothing does
throwaway22032 4y ago
The Model S has frameless windows. If the window opener fails you can't close or open the door. They use the fact that they are electronic to add gimmicks.

duncans 4y ago

Regarding the pop-out door handles - this is a fascinating video on how the Tesla Model S door handles design has been refined and made more reliable by someone who used to work at Tesla (SuperfastMatt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea4FS-zDzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea4FS-zDzc

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

>I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise." The only reason they ask for your papers is because it's an easy ticket to write or pretext for fishing if you don't have them. They look up your info based on the plate regardless.