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That’s demonstrably false. Each EV is an immediate ~13k kg hit on CO2. Average ICE passenger car is .4 kg CO2 per mile. Even if you have a source of zero car

That’s demonstrably false. Each EV is an immediate ~13k kg hit on CO2. Average ICE passenger car is .4 kg CO2 per mile. Even if you have a source of zero carbon energy to power the EV, that’s 32500 miles of driving an ICE before you break even on CO2.

shagie 4y ago
https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html Note the "choose a state" and compare Wyoming or West Virginia for a regular hybrid car (e.g. Prius or Insight) to an EV... and that is quite different than if you pull up California, Oregon, or Washington. In WY and WV, the plugin hybrids have a larger carbon footprint than a regular ICE hybrid car (Prius or Insight).
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
So every car that does more than 32500 comes out ahead, which is basically all of them. Youd need to commit to keeping the car for over a decade while only doing 3000 miles per year, then blowing it up out of spite to fail that.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Only if the electricity is net zero carbon though (and, really, only if the generation of that low-carbon electricity somehow is related to driving the car and wouldn't have been generated anyway).
  - jnwatson 4y ago
    Right, if you live in West Virginia, it is entirely possible to never have a break even point, as in, it will never save CO2 to buy an EV.
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      You could always move somewhere energy generation isn't so dirty especially as its probably also effecting your air quality not to speak of the employment options.
    - thinkcontext 4y ago
      According to the Energy Dept site listed upthread, even in WV with 92% coal generation an EV emits half the CO2 per mile as an ICE. You really have to consider all the variables, ie grid carbon intensity, miles driven and car manufacturing. People seem to get focused on one of the variables in the carbon lifecycle.
  - thinkcontext 4y ago
    Why does it have to be net zero? That would certainly get you to breakeven in less miles but it is by no means a requirement for an EV having a carbon advantage over an ICE.
- 8note 4y ago
  Is it ahead really? The total carbon is still gonna be higher than not doing all that travel
  - ben_w 4y ago
    If you can actually avoid the travel, sure. I have been able to avoid travelling by car[0], but I have the luck of being in a city with good public transport and local-sized shops, so there are 5 tram stops (and several bus stops and a suburban rail station) and 8 supermarkets closer to me than the gap between the middles of Apple's south car park and their duck pond. And back in Cambridgeshire, roads were quiet enough I was comfortable commuting (and shopping) by bike. Not everyone is in such a well-designed place. [0] I don't own a car, and the last time I was behind a wheel was, I think, 2017.
merb 4y ago
such comparsions are mostly stupid, since there are too many factors that would make it really hard to analyze. i.e. as long as cars are produced the 13k kg hit on co2 will be made no matter if you buy it or not, your old ice car will probably be resold and probably to somebody that can than save co2 emissions per mile, not every electricity is green, your old card was probably produced with more co2, it depends if you upgrade/downgrade/keep your car class, it depends how you drive (and if you ever driven an ev, you will see that its easier to drive it economically), and so on. of course the plain numbers might make sense on paper but not on the real world.

shagie 4y ago

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html Note the "choose a state" and compare Wyoming or West Virginia for a regular hybrid car (e.g. Prius or Insight) to an EV... and that is quite different than if you pull up California, Oregon, or Washington. In WY and WV, the plugin hybrids have a larger carbon footprint than a regular ICE hybrid car (Prius or Insight).

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

So every car that does more than 32500 comes out ahead, which is basically all of them. Youd need to commit to keeping the car for over a decade while only doing 3000 miles per year, then blowing it up out of spite to fail that.

HPsquared 4y ago
Only if the electricity is net zero carbon though (and, really, only if the generation of that low-carbon electricity somehow is related to driving the car and wouldn't have been generated anyway).
- jnwatson 4y ago
  Right, if you live in West Virginia, it is entirely possible to never have a break even point, as in, it will never save CO2 to buy an EV.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    You could always move somewhere energy generation isn't so dirty especially as its probably also effecting your air quality not to speak of the employment options.
  - thinkcontext 4y ago
    According to the Energy Dept site listed upthread, even in WV with 92% coal generation an EV emits half the CO2 per mile as an ICE. You really have to consider all the variables, ie grid carbon intensity, miles driven and car manufacturing. People seem to get focused on one of the variables in the carbon lifecycle.
- thinkcontext 4y ago
  Why does it have to be net zero? That would certainly get you to breakeven in less miles but it is by no means a requirement for an EV having a carbon advantage over an ICE.
8note 4y ago
Is it ahead really? The total carbon is still gonna be higher than not doing all that travel
- ben_w 4y ago
  If you can actually avoid the travel, sure. I have been able to avoid travelling by car[0], but I have the luck of being in a city with good public transport and local-sized shops, so there are 5 tram stops (and several bus stops and a suburban rail station) and 8 supermarkets closer to me than the gap between the middles of Apple's south car park and their duck pond. And back in Cambridgeshire, roads were quiet enough I was comfortable commuting (and shopping) by bike. Not everyone is in such a well-designed place. [0] I don't own a car, and the last time I was behind a wheel was, I think, 2017.

merb 4y ago

such comparsions are mostly stupid, since there are too many factors that would make it really hard to analyze. i.e. as long as cars are produced the 13k kg hit on co2 will be made no matter if you buy it or not, your old ice car will probably be resold and probably to somebody that can than save co2 emissions per mile, not every electricity is green, your old card was probably produced with more co2, it depends if you upgrade/downgrade/keep your car class, it depends how you drive (and if you ever driven an ev, you will see that its easier to drive it economically), and so on. of course the plain numbers might make sense on paper but not on the real world.