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I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump nois

I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump noise. Tesla isn't great there, but the Tesla software is good, and what some people call "kids" treat the car more like a smart phone. They don't care if your panel gaps are great - if your infotainment software is very laggy or crashes, it's a low quality car.

taylodl 4y ago
Yes, but kids can't afford Teslas, now can they? The people who are actually paying for Teslas care about things such as fit and finish. They also care about reliability and service. I don't know about reliability, and here I'm talking about not getting stranded due to issues with the car, but frankly Tesla gets an 'F' everywhere else. Meanwhile Apple Car Play and Android Auto take care of the "kids" concern for infotainment software. I've seen many auto manufacturers go under over the course of my life. Tesla is just going to be another one.
starfallg 4y ago
The Tesla infotainment system pre-2018/MCU2 is pretty laggy. The software also writes too much to the eMMC and bricks the MCU after a few years in the original design. And without Android Auto / Apple Carplay, you can't bypass it by plugging in your phone either, which is still a problem now.
- schipplock 4y ago
  https://www.tesla.com/support/8gb-emmc-recall-frequently-asked-questions https://www.tesla.com/support/8gb-emmc-recall-frequently-ask...
  - akino_germany 4y ago
    So you get a new eMMC which dies in a few years again? Or did they fix the software as well?
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      The last FAQ entry mentions a software update so I wouldn’t be surprised if it did. Or at least made it so the writes are spread out over the 64GB replacement resulting in 8x longevity.
      - ilyt 4y ago
        mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Is the hostility really necessary? Tesla doesn’t release detailed changelogs outside of their FSD betas, so guesses are the best thing you’re going to get short of an insider telling you. The fact that a software update is specifically highlighted in the FAQ of this recall does indeed suggest that said update would improve on or fix the issue. Otherwise why would it have been called out at all? Whether you choose to believe it does is up to you, but I don’t really see what else you’d expect someone without inside knowledge to be able to provide here. Explicitly, the first guideline for HN is: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. Edit out swipes.
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    They wanted to charge me $200 to complete this recall.
bitexploder 4y ago
Tesla software is not good overall. The engineering for the batteries is amazing. Drivetrain efficiency is good. The further the software gets from those two things the worse it gets. We ditched our model 3 for an e-tron and could not be happier. We gave up some range for an overall superior product. Our main complaint was the software, especially the shoddy constantly changing main UI. Tesla are good cars for what they do but for most drivers there are better EVs now. Also the Tesla infotainment system constantly breaking /was/ our main complaint. Bluetooth behavior was bad. Crashed and needed resetting (mid drive) pretty often. And it is way more than just infotainment, it is your main UI to do critical tasks like turn on wipers, etc.
- guhidalg 4y ago
  - bitexploder 4y ago
    Is what it is. Our issues were common on Tesla forums when we tried to fix them ourselves.
  - Hellion 4y ago
    > not my experience, overblowing It absolutely is my experience as well. I suspect there’s a sizable majority of people who have no issues with their Tesla ever. But there are still a lot of us who didn’t have a good experience. Accusing people of lying just makes you look like a blind fanboy. My 2015 model s would beg to differ. I had it for two years. The screen crashed about once a month and it leaked when it rained, which is annoying in Monterey. First new car id ever bought , shortest I’ve ever owned a car. Fantastic in a lot of ways but the door leaking and the runaround with the company made me unload it.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    A few reasons why I much prefer the Audi Q4 E-tron to a Model Y; * It has wireless Carplay - so I don't need to rely on Audi (or Tesla) engineers to provide Spotify or podcast integrations * It has a physical lever to control the windshield wipers like every other car made in the past 50 years. You don't need to dig through menus to use a critical safety feature. * It has physical buttons for the HVAC controls - so again, I don't need to look at an obnoxious screen for a feature that shouldn't be software-based to begin with. I have no doubt that Tesla's "pace of development" is faster and that they're going to ship more updates to improve things but sometimes you don't need in-house software to solve all of your problems.
zhdc1 4y ago
Expectations are simply different once you step into the luxury segment. Tesla, pre Model 3, had real issues that went beyond panel gaps. Modern Tesla is doing much better, but they're competing against established players who differentiate through great interiors and "the little details". Large portions of this customer segment are willing to trade long term reliability for perceived build quality and overall luxury. Tesla's value proposition, which is great performance and long term reliability at the expense of panel gap size and cheap leather, simply doesn't fit their expectations.
- starfallg 4y ago
  >long term reliability Are you aware that Tesla's MCU bricks itself after a few years due to eMMC wear? They also dragged their feet before finally caving in and agreeing to a recall. I wouldn't call any Tesla reliable long-term. The older models have proven themselves to be not reliable, and the new models are too new for these issues due to poor design to surface.
- KaiserPro 4y ago
  I went to a tesla store late in 2021 to see the X, 3 and S. On the model S in the show room, the boot looked like they had painted over a number of bugs. One door was higher than the other. The panel gap around the driver door was massive. I have a 2006 kia rio, which has better paint work, and better panel gaps than a tesla, and costs £1800. I really wanted to like the tesla as I could have got a good deal, but if it didn't fit together, then what else has crappy tolerances? is the NCAP performance rigged? will it actually survive a crash? edit stuff like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/jlSOOHJ https://imgur.com/gallery/jlSOOHJ
ajmurmann 4y ago
I don't get the infotainment software thing. Am I an outlier by just wanting the dumbest possible system for my phone to connect to and run CarPlay on? I don't want anything the car maker added, not even radio.
- laputan_machine 4y ago
  We are almost definitely outliers, but the good thing is that there are probably enough of us to be a worthwhile market for people to sell us these kinds of vehicles. I don't think we'll ever be forced into buying these ridiculous computers with cars attached. My current manufacturer of choice is Honda, but I'm sure they'll end up adding this cruft at some point to their future cars, too.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    At least the Passport seems a pretty good balance even if there are still more "do you really need to have an electronic control for that?" things than I'd probably like in an ideal world.
- ghaff 4y ago
  I use my Honda's infotainment system to set defaults for various car systems and for CarPlay. That's basically it. Doesn't even have a particularly large screen but it's fine for what I need it for. Climate controls etc. are all buttons.
- arkh 4y ago
  > Am I an outlier by just wanting the dumbest possible system for my phone to connect to and run CarPlay on? That's one thing I like with my Up!. The infotainment system is a simple phone holder with USB to power it.
LudwigNagasena 4y ago
Panel gaps don’t even matter from a pragmatic standpoint.
- laputan_machine 4y ago
  Big panel gaps = lowered fuel economy. Seems pragmatic to me to care about it.
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    Lowered by how much?
    - laputan_machine 4y ago
      Ah, the ol' "move the goalposts" technique! A classic for sure.
      - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
        Well, of course "actually, it costs $2 per month in fuel" may be technically correct, but I am sure most people would find such concerns quite petty and beside the point.
        laputan_machine 4y ago
        > Panel gaps don’t even matter from a pragmatic standpoint. This is your statement. They "don't even matter". It's not pragmatic to care about panel gaps. It doesn't matter. That is what you are stating, that isn't me misquoting or being malicious, they're your words! If you meant to instead say "There are diminishing returns to reduce panel gap size, and Tesla have got it right!", then I agree with the first statement, disagree with the second, but best of all it clarifies your point. Cheers!
        LudwigNagasena 4y ago
brk 4y ago
Automakers rate things like panel gaps on an X of 10 scale, where X is on average how many people have historically complained about a gap of a given size. Some thing are rated as maybe a 3 of 10, and they won’t overly obsess on it, but something that shows a 6 or 7 of 10 complaint rate is going to get attention. It is very data driven, from the fact that a significant number of new cars buyers DO actually care.
billsmithaustin 4y ago
That's funny. I remember news reports about how Japanese consumers didn't want to buy American-made cars because of the perception that Japanese cars were higher quality. The salesmen tried to explain that American consumers didn't care about things like panel gaps or wind noise of door closing bump noise.
jvanderbot 4y ago
We bought a model Y for two years of mortgage payments. It's a dream to drive! But the user experience is abysmal. Menus are deep, the entire dashboard is wasted, including the most valuable real estate in front of the driver, and everything is just too hard. E.g. Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving. Adjusting heating takes two clicks, and when you adjust temp, it clears all your other settings and goes to "auto", which half the time will engage A/C because it's over desired temp by a small amount. Seat warmer? 2+ clicks on center console. Radio stations? 2+ menus, minimum two if you set up a hotkey bar on the bottom of the tablet. Map? You're practically looking at the passenger glove box to see it. As mentioned below, the glove box itself is two menus deep. I find my wife has a mental thermostat model where she expects the heat to turn off if she dials down the climate control, but that just turns on AC full blast. I'd pay 5k more to have buttons and dials. I love the car for its drive, but really hate the interior interfaces. This model of "Bolt an ipad to the dash" needs to die.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  Regarding climate, I've found this really depends on how much you like auto. I'm fine with auto most of the time, so I haven't had an issue. Even the auto seat warmers actually work pretty well for me. They barely get warm and then turn off on their own, which is really what I prefer. Also, you can put the seat warmer icon on the bottom bar, so its just one tap to toggle off/levels 1-3/auto. I'm not sure what you mean about the map. Every car that I've used has that to the right in a similar position. The tesla layout seems fine to me. The glovebox is my biggest annoyance, in general. I wish there was a button somewhere.
- toss1 4y ago
  >> Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving. Wow, that's horrible! While I set my mirrors initially while parked, I often find the need to make fine adjustments while driving (in low-stress situations). Having to use a 3-layer-deep menu for that —on the center console, no less— is just a complete dealbreaker. Thank you for posting that! Makes my decision tree easier and another key item to check in evaluating new cars. EDIT: "fine adjustments" => "fine"
- 4y ago
ilyt 4y ago
That's quality, not reliability And Tesla yokes fall apart, who doesn't care about that ? But yeah, bad infotainment can make car feel very old, in the "what the fuck I spent my money on, my ancient phone is faster!" way. Especially when you save few bucks putting essential controls on touch screen instead of a knob
josefx 4y ago
As far as the German TüV is concerned Tesla fails at being roadworthy. Its cars compete with Dachia in the fails first mandatory inspection statistic.
themerone 4y ago
Lack of institutional knowledge is a huge problem at Tesla. They repeatedly have to learn lessons that every other auto maker figured out decades ago. It's pervasive across the whole company. Remember when Elon was complaining about the lack of car carrier trailers, and making plans to build his own? Tesla was the only company with that problem.

taylodl 4y ago

Yes, but kids can't afford Teslas, now can they? The people who are actually paying for Teslas care about things such as fit and finish. They also care about reliability and service. I don't know about reliability, and here I'm talking about not getting stranded due to issues with the car, but frankly Tesla gets an 'F' everywhere else. Meanwhile Apple Car Play and Android Auto take care of the "kids" concern for infotainment software. I've seen many auto manufacturers go under over the course of my life. Tesla is just going to be another one.

starfallg 4y ago

The Tesla infotainment system pre-2018/MCU2 is pretty laggy. The software also writes too much to the eMMC and bricks the MCU after a few years in the original design. And without Android Auto / Apple Carplay, you can't bypass it by plugging in your phone either, which is still a problem now.

schipplock 4y ago
https://www.tesla.com/support/8gb-emmc-recall-frequently-asked-questions https://www.tesla.com/support/8gb-emmc-recall-frequently-ask...
- akino_germany 4y ago
  So you get a new eMMC which dies in a few years again? Or did they fix the software as well?
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    The last FAQ entry mentions a software update so I wouldn’t be surprised if it did. Or at least made it so the writes are spread out over the 64GB replacement resulting in 8x longevity.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Is the hostility really necessary? Tesla doesn’t release detailed changelogs outside of their FSD betas, so guesses are the best thing you’re going to get short of an insider telling you. The fact that a software update is specifically highlighted in the FAQ of this recall does indeed suggest that said update would improve on or fix the issue. Otherwise why would it have been called out at all? Whether you choose to believe it does is up to you, but I don’t really see what else you’d expect someone without inside knowledge to be able to provide here. Explicitly, the first guideline for HN is: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. Edit out swipes.
- socialismisok 4y ago
  They wanted to charge me $200 to complete this recall.

bitexploder 4y ago

Tesla software is not good overall. The engineering for the batteries is amazing. Drivetrain efficiency is good. The further the software gets from those two things the worse it gets. We ditched our model 3 for an e-tron and could not be happier. We gave up some range for an overall superior product. Our main complaint was the software, especially the shoddy constantly changing main UI. Tesla are good cars for what they do but for most drivers there are better EVs now. Also the Tesla infotainment system constantly breaking /was/ our main complaint. Bluetooth behavior was bad. Crashed and needed resetting (mid drive) pretty often. And it is way more than just infotainment, it is your main UI to do critical tasks like turn on wipers, etc.

guhidalg 4y ago
- bitexploder 4y ago
  Is what it is. Our issues were common on Tesla forums when we tried to fix them ourselves.
- Hellion 4y ago
  > not my experience, overblowing It absolutely is my experience as well. I suspect there’s a sizable majority of people who have no issues with their Tesla ever. But there are still a lot of us who didn’t have a good experience. Accusing people of lying just makes you look like a blind fanboy. My 2015 model s would beg to differ. I had it for two years. The screen crashed about once a month and it leaked when it rained, which is annoying in Monterey. First new car id ever bought , shortest I’ve ever owned a car. Fantastic in a lot of ways but the door leaking and the runaround with the company made me unload it.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  A few reasons why I much prefer the Audi Q4 E-tron to a Model Y; * It has wireless Carplay - so I don't need to rely on Audi (or Tesla) engineers to provide Spotify or podcast integrations * It has a physical lever to control the windshield wipers like every other car made in the past 50 years. You don't need to dig through menus to use a critical safety feature. * It has physical buttons for the HVAC controls - so again, I don't need to look at an obnoxious screen for a feature that shouldn't be software-based to begin with. I have no doubt that Tesla's "pace of development" is faster and that they're going to ship more updates to improve things but sometimes you don't need in-house software to solve all of your problems.

zhdc1 4y ago

Expectations are simply different once you step into the luxury segment. Tesla, pre Model 3, had real issues that went beyond panel gaps. Modern Tesla is doing much better, but they're competing against established players who differentiate through great interiors and "the little details". Large portions of this customer segment are willing to trade long term reliability for perceived build quality and overall luxury. Tesla's value proposition, which is great performance and long term reliability at the expense of panel gap size and cheap leather, simply doesn't fit their expectations.

starfallg 4y ago
>long term reliability Are you aware that Tesla's MCU bricks itself after a few years due to eMMC wear? They also dragged their feet before finally caving in and agreeing to a recall. I wouldn't call any Tesla reliable long-term. The older models have proven themselves to be not reliable, and the new models are too new for these issues due to poor design to surface.
KaiserPro 4y ago
I went to a tesla store late in 2021 to see the X, 3 and S. On the model S in the show room, the boot looked like they had painted over a number of bugs. One door was higher than the other. The panel gap around the driver door was massive. I have a 2006 kia rio, which has better paint work, and better panel gaps than a tesla, and costs £1800. I really wanted to like the tesla as I could have got a good deal, but if it didn't fit together, then what else has crappy tolerances? is the NCAP performance rigged? will it actually survive a crash? edit stuff like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/jlSOOHJ https://imgur.com/gallery/jlSOOHJ

ajmurmann 4y ago

I don't get the infotainment software thing. Am I an outlier by just wanting the dumbest possible system for my phone to connect to and run CarPlay on? I don't want anything the car maker added, not even radio.

laputan_machine 4y ago
We are almost definitely outliers, but the good thing is that there are probably enough of us to be a worthwhile market for people to sell us these kinds of vehicles. I don't think we'll ever be forced into buying these ridiculous computers with cars attached. My current manufacturer of choice is Honda, but I'm sure they'll end up adding this cruft at some point to their future cars, too.
- ghaff 4y ago
  At least the Passport seems a pretty good balance even if there are still more "do you really need to have an electronic control for that?" things than I'd probably like in an ideal world.
ghaff 4y ago
I use my Honda's infotainment system to set defaults for various car systems and for CarPlay. That's basically it. Doesn't even have a particularly large screen but it's fine for what I need it for. Climate controls etc. are all buttons.
arkh 4y ago
> Am I an outlier by just wanting the dumbest possible system for my phone to connect to and run CarPlay on? That's one thing I like with my Up!. The infotainment system is a simple phone holder with USB to power it.

LudwigNagasena 4y ago

Panel gaps don’t even matter from a pragmatic standpoint.

laputan_machine 4y ago
Big panel gaps = lowered fuel economy. Seems pragmatic to me to care about it.
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  Lowered by how much?
  - laputan_machine 4y ago
    Ah, the ol' "move the goalposts" technique! A classic for sure.
    - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
      Well, of course "actually, it costs $2 per month in fuel" may be technically correct, but I am sure most people would find such concerns quite petty and beside the point.
      - laputan_machine 4y ago
        > Panel gaps don’t even matter from a pragmatic standpoint. This is your statement. They "don't even matter". It's not pragmatic to care about panel gaps. It doesn't matter. That is what you are stating, that isn't me misquoting or being malicious, they're your words! If you meant to instead say "There are diminishing returns to reduce panel gap size, and Tesla have got it right!", then I agree with the first statement, disagree with the second, but best of all it clarifies your point. Cheers!
        LudwigNagasena 4y ago

brk 4y ago

Automakers rate things like panel gaps on an X of 10 scale, where X is on average how many people have historically complained about a gap of a given size. Some thing are rated as maybe a 3 of 10, and they won’t overly obsess on it, but something that shows a 6 or 7 of 10 complaint rate is going to get attention. It is very data driven, from the fact that a significant number of new cars buyers DO actually care.

billsmithaustin 4y ago

That's funny. I remember news reports about how Japanese consumers didn't want to buy American-made cars because of the perception that Japanese cars were higher quality. The salesmen tried to explain that American consumers didn't care about things like panel gaps or wind noise of door closing bump noise.

jvanderbot 4y ago

We bought a model Y for two years of mortgage payments. It's a dream to drive! But the user experience is abysmal. Menus are deep, the entire dashboard is wasted, including the most valuable real estate in front of the driver, and everything is just too hard. E.g. Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving. Adjusting heating takes two clicks, and when you adjust temp, it clears all your other settings and goes to "auto", which half the time will engage A/C because it's over desired temp by a small amount. Seat warmer? 2+ clicks on center console. Radio stations? 2+ menus, minimum two if you set up a hotkey bar on the bottom of the tablet. Map? You're practically looking at the passenger glove box to see it. As mentioned below, the glove box itself is two menus deep. I find my wife has a mental thermostat model where she expects the heat to turn off if she dials down the climate control, but that just turns on AC full blast. I'd pay 5k more to have buttons and dials. I love the car for its drive, but really hate the interior interfaces. This model of "Bolt an ipad to the dash" needs to die.

_ea1k 4y ago
Regarding climate, I've found this really depends on how much you like auto. I'm fine with auto most of the time, so I haven't had an issue. Even the auto seat warmers actually work pretty well for me. They barely get warm and then turn off on their own, which is really what I prefer. Also, you can put the seat warmer icon on the bottom bar, so its just one tap to toggle off/levels 1-3/auto. I'm not sure what you mean about the map. Every car that I've used has that to the right in a similar position. The tesla layout seems fine to me. The glovebox is my biggest annoyance, in general. I wish there was a button somewhere.
toss1 4y ago
>> Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving. Wow, that's horrible! While I set my mirrors initially while parked, I often find the need to make fine adjustments while driving (in low-stress situations). Having to use a 3-layer-deep menu for that —on the center console, no less— is just a complete dealbreaker. Thank you for posting that! Makes my decision tree easier and another key item to check in evaluating new cars. EDIT: "fine adjustments" => "fine"
4y ago

ilyt 4y ago

That's quality, not reliability And Tesla yokes fall apart, who doesn't care about that ? But yeah, bad infotainment can make car feel very old, in the "what the fuck I spent my money on, my ancient phone is faster!" way. Especially when you save few bucks putting essential controls on touch screen instead of a knob

josefx 4y ago

As far as the German TüV is concerned Tesla fails at being roadworthy. Its cars compete with Dachia in the fails first mandatory inspection statistic.

themerone 4y ago

Lack of institutional knowledge is a huge problem at Tesla. They repeatedly have to learn lessons that every other auto maker figured out decades ago. It's pervasive across the whole company. Remember when Elon was complaining about the lack of car carrier trailers, and making plans to build his own? Tesla was the only company with that problem.