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Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof

by throwaway22032 4y ago

Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs. My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a century of serious engineering work to get it to that place. And yeah, having owned a Tesla, the earlier models at least were designed to be fun luxury toys. Even something like the windows - frameless, auto-retracting things that can freeze in winter, vs a mechanical wind down thing on a Civic or whatever.

btbuildem 4y ago
For issues with drivetrain etc -- absolutely. But it seems that a lot of the problems center around fit and finish of the body of the vehicle, trim, accessories etc -- stuff the industry has decades of experience with. It really sounds like quality was sacrificed for efficiency there.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  “The industry” also had decades of time to perfect their process, and afaik there isn’t some giant knowledge-sharing system in place for new manufacturers to get all the insights of “the industry”. A new car manufacturer is going to have issues in fit and finish for the first few years regardless as they figure out their tooling process. I’m sure quality was sacrificed to some extent, everyone does it whenever they can, but I wouldn’t expect a new company to be at the same level as one that’s been doing it for decades.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    But aren't most components actually sourced from third-parties? In which case, their experience with the traditional manufacturers could be reused. The French manufacturers, for example, don't produce their own seats. I don't expect the auxiliary (as in not engine / drivetrain related) components to be radically different just because they're attached to an EV-powered car. Or does Tesla actually manufacture everything?
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      Body panel fit is a pretty common complaint with Teslas (and is definitely an issue, my own has gaps in some areas but none that I deemed extreme, I’ve seen some bad ones out there though). That would be an example of something that, IMO, can only be perfected with time. The body panels might be similar to other cars, but it’s something that each manufacturer is going to have different issues with because of the variability. I don’t think I’ve really seen many criticisms of commonly available parts used in Tesla cars. The one big one that comes to mind would be the eMMC recall which, similar to what I said above, Tesla figured out after years of heavy writes to the component. It’s something that could have been avoided had there been some centralized group to give best practices for automotive or industrial development but that just doesn’t really exist.
standardUser 4y ago
It's interesting that Tesla, one of the newest automakers, has far more issues than the EVs made by the established players. So it may be less that the Model S is only 10 years old and more that Tesla itself is relativley young and inexperienced.
wlesieutre 4y ago
The EV drive trains are simpler, but they've come along with some silly bits like having to electronically open the glove box from the infotainment screen. Is that mechanism going to last 20 years? How about the pop-out door handles? I'm not optimistic. I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise."
- robin_reala 4y ago
  These are Tesla things though. My VW EV has normal door handles, glove box handle, air vent positioning, manual seats, etc etc.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    They may be "Tesla things", but they're in no way related to Tesla's being an EV. The same gadgetry could very well be attached to an ICE vehicle.
    - Brian_K_White 4y ago
      The Rivian suv is even worse like this. I was waiting for the suv to come out and now that it finally did I guess I'll just get a 4runner. It doesn't boggle my mind that there are people with no sense that think a car with just a big touch screen and nothing else is a fresh new and therefor better idea, but it does boggle my mind that there are so many of them that a whole car actually gets all the way to mass production like that, all the engineers and ergonomics people and managers and execs that all had to sign off on all of that... that does just plain flabbergast me. You need to navigate screen menus to AIM THE AIR VENTS in the Rivian suv.
  - wlesieutre 4y ago
    The Lyriq also has an electronic glove box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sirCpkqvpE0&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sirCpkqvpE0&t=59s Very possible we'll see the same in the Blazer, and maybe the Equinox too. Which puts you in the stupid situation where if your 12v battery is dead, you can't even use the car's paper manual to look at the jumping instructions. The process has of course been made more complicated by the addition of a scavenger hunt for the positive and negative terminals hidden under separate plastic covers under the hood. The 12v battery in an EV shouldn't die, but failures in the system to automatically keep it topped up are not unheard of, and batteries do go bad eventually.
laserbeam 4y ago
> Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? Obviously. Any such report (accurate or otherwise) would show you a snapshot of how things are right now. It won't tell you why or predict how the reliability might change. It makes perfect sense that Tesla would still need to iron out issues related to build quality (unlike automakers who have been working on those for decades), and that other automakers would have to iron out issues related to the electric drive train (less experience in that front).
- lillecarl 4y ago
  It's a lot easier to catch up on sticking batteries, an esc and some brushless motors into a good car than building a good car. Elon succeeded, he got other manufacturers to start building quality EVs.

btbuildem 4y ago

For issues with drivetrain etc -- absolutely. But it seems that a lot of the problems center around fit and finish of the body of the vehicle, trim, accessories etc -- stuff the industry has decades of experience with. It really sounds like quality was sacrificed for efficiency there.

mynameisvlad 4y ago
“The industry” also had decades of time to perfect their process, and afaik there isn’t some giant knowledge-sharing system in place for new manufacturers to get all the insights of “the industry”. A new car manufacturer is going to have issues in fit and finish for the first few years regardless as they figure out their tooling process. I’m sure quality was sacrificed to some extent, everyone does it whenever they can, but I wouldn’t expect a new company to be at the same level as one that’s been doing it for decades.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  But aren't most components actually sourced from third-parties? In which case, their experience with the traditional manufacturers could be reused. The French manufacturers, for example, don't produce their own seats. I don't expect the auxiliary (as in not engine / drivetrain related) components to be radically different just because they're attached to an EV-powered car. Or does Tesla actually manufacture everything?
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    Body panel fit is a pretty common complaint with Teslas (and is definitely an issue, my own has gaps in some areas but none that I deemed extreme, I’ve seen some bad ones out there though). That would be an example of something that, IMO, can only be perfected with time. The body panels might be similar to other cars, but it’s something that each manufacturer is going to have different issues with because of the variability. I don’t think I’ve really seen many criticisms of commonly available parts used in Tesla cars. The one big one that comes to mind would be the eMMC recall which, similar to what I said above, Tesla figured out after years of heavy writes to the component. It’s something that could have been avoided had there been some centralized group to give best practices for automotive or industrial development but that just doesn’t really exist.

standardUser 4y ago

It's interesting that Tesla, one of the newest automakers, has far more issues than the EVs made by the established players. So it may be less that the Model S is only 10 years old and more that Tesla itself is relativley young and inexperienced.

wlesieutre 4y ago

The EV drive trains are simpler, but they've come along with some silly bits like having to electronically open the glove box from the infotainment screen. Is that mechanism going to last 20 years? How about the pop-out door handles? I'm not optimistic. I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise."

robin_reala 4y ago
These are Tesla things though. My VW EV has normal door handles, glove box handle, air vent positioning, manual seats, etc etc.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  They may be "Tesla things", but they're in no way related to Tesla's being an EV. The same gadgetry could very well be attached to an ICE vehicle.
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    The Rivian suv is even worse like this. I was waiting for the suv to come out and now that it finally did I guess I'll just get a 4runner. It doesn't boggle my mind that there are people with no sense that think a car with just a big touch screen and nothing else is a fresh new and therefor better idea, but it does boggle my mind that there are so many of them that a whole car actually gets all the way to mass production like that, all the engineers and ergonomics people and managers and execs that all had to sign off on all of that... that does just plain flabbergast me. You need to navigate screen menus to AIM THE AIR VENTS in the Rivian suv.
- wlesieutre 4y ago
  The Lyriq also has an electronic glove box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sirCpkqvpE0&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sirCpkqvpE0&t=59s Very possible we'll see the same in the Blazer, and maybe the Equinox too. Which puts you in the stupid situation where if your 12v battery is dead, you can't even use the car's paper manual to look at the jumping instructions. The process has of course been made more complicated by the addition of a scavenger hunt for the positive and negative terminals hidden under separate plastic covers under the hood. The 12v battery in an EV shouldn't die, but failures in the system to automatically keep it topped up are not unheard of, and batteries do go bad eventually.

laserbeam 4y ago

> Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? Obviously. Any such report (accurate or otherwise) would show you a snapshot of how things are right now. It won't tell you why or predict how the reliability might change. It makes perfect sense that Tesla would still need to iron out issues related to build quality (unlike automakers who have been working on those for decades), and that other automakers would have to iron out issues related to the electric drive train (less experience in that front).

lillecarl 4y ago
It's a lot easier to catch up on sticking batteries, an esc and some brushless motors into a good car than building a good car. Elon succeeded, he got other manufacturers to start building quality EVs.